From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri May 23 13:38:47 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 23 May 2008 13:38:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Jze2J-0008Fw-QG for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 23 May 2008 13:38:47 -0700 Received: from ti-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.142.186]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Jze2C-0007wl-Ea for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 23 May 2008 13:38:47 -0700 Received: by ti-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id i7so758644tid.20 for ; Fri, 23 May 2008 13:38:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=LZCz5ajN2AkBgY8HmA7oZ3oLw7x+O45LjyFAafXbpEE=; b=Xocstf78AspB0JN/rHEYkUtaSDrcLScCUmdo0FOWfE5Q6h3cLeABu6AGWM7ZmOzHZ4n4WM4uoSvzQLwDOHAfDNgZwX3+szcCFoLxnLTsqTTddDdWdFFbmtN8P537MeQHBHbpkacE3SQonM9NgV5DYd6KcVZTxyEzE27QLL/5hTE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; b=pQVjj+SDKjZUD1u8TstHekLfauIpayqRgU+m1Fuu4dcBfRavAuz8KkVUjZcXEynsP35M07AHtqfwneZqiix/j9Y3t7wIIDIKU/VMpMCUpEkNPe9wWtSG0v1sTb/e5v8BcD13PnaoT6aEUu61uAw17bJQkrskQeSVARrA0JMpYDY= Received: by 10.151.112.16 with SMTP id p16mr426282ybm.37.1211575113822; Fri, 23 May 2008 13:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.50.12 with HTTP; Fri, 23 May 2008 13:38:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 23 May 2008 16:38:33 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: plipe In-Reply-To: <540264.41911.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3154_18868462.1211575113835" References: <540264.41911.qm@web88003.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 575 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_3154_18868462.1211575113835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 5/21/08, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > coi rodo > I've been reviewing some lojban vocabulary, and have come to {plipe}. > x4 is defined as the height leapt. But most of the time, when we > 'leap', it's not to attain height but to cross a distance e.g. across > a crevice. How would we say 'I leapt one meter across the crevice'? > The height achieved in doing so would be of little interest > to most people. > mu'o mi'e andrus There are few (no?) places in the gismu structures which refer specifically to a distance travelled. I agree with Xorxes that it's idiomatic to express most such concepts with the space-tense tag "ve'a". Consider that to a Lojbanic mind, space and time are similar constructs. An event of plipe travels over a certain distance, during a certain length of time, as do all physical activities, and they all have the tense system basically available to express qualities of that motion through space-time. The most lobykai role of gismu place structures is to show us what the soul of a gismu is. The gismu "plipe" is no different from other motion words in terms of having distance, but its quality of reaching a certain height (by travelling up to it, before falling back down) is characteristic. The distance travelled is an emergent property, if you think about it, of the second and third places and their properties, and in practice that's one way that occured to me to express the sentiment you asked for: mi pu plipe lo bancu be lo drata korbi be lo condi fenra be ve'a lo mitre I jumped to beyond the other side of a deep crevice which was a meter large. That puts the space-tense into the size of the hole, as opposed to the leaping, which is more appropriate if the crevice is in fact a meter wide itself, as to attempt to jump a one-meter crevice by jumping exactly one meter would be foolhardy. Incidentally, if you're not being precise or talking about gismu place structures or something, but rather telling a story for example, then I think one fun expressive way to say things like this is in big tanru: .ii mi mitre fenra snada bo plipe Eek! I meter-crevice successfully-leap! mu'o mi'e la .bret. no'u la selckiku ------=_Part_3154_18868462.1211575113835 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 5/21/08, A. PI= EKARSKI <totus@rogers.com>= ; wrote:
coi rodo
I've been reviewing some lojban vocabulary, and have come = to {plipe}.
x4 is defined as the height leapt.  But most of t= he time, when we
'leap', it's not to attain height but to c= ross a distance e.g. across
a crevice.  How would we say 'I leapt one meter across the c= revice'?
The height achieved in doing so would be of little interes= t
to most people.
mu'o mi'e andrus

There are few (no?) places in the gismu stru= ctures which refer specifically to a distance trav= elled.  I agree with Xorxes that it's idiomatic to = express most such concepts with the space-tense tag &qu= ot;ve'a".  Consider that to a Lojbanic&nb= sp;mind, space and time are similar constructs. &n= bsp;An event of plipe travels over a certain&= nbsp;distance, during a certain length of time,&nb= sp;as do all physical activities, and they al= l have the tense system basically available&n= bsp;to express qualities of that motion through sp= ace-time. 
 
The most lobykai role of gismu place structures is to show us wha= t the soul of a gismu is.  The gismu "plipe" is no different= from other motion words in terms of having distance, but its quality of re= aching a certain height (by travelling up to it, before falling back down) = is characteristic.
 
The distance travelled is an emergent property, if you think abou= t it, of the second and third places and their properties, and in practice = that's one way that occured to me to express the sentiment you asked fo= r:
 
mi pu plipe lo bancu be lo drata korbi be lo condi fe= nra be ve'a lo mitre
I jumped to beyond the other side o= f a deep crevice which was a meter large.
 
That puts the spac= e-tense into the size of the hole, as opposed to the leaping, which is more= appropriate if the crevice is in fact a mete= r wide itself, as to attempt to jump a o= ne-meter crevice by jumping exactly one meter would be = foolhardy.
 
Incidentally, if you're not being precise or talking about gi= smu place structures or something, but rather telling a story for example, = then I think one fun expressive way to say things like this is in big tanru= :
 
.ii mi mitre fenra snada bo plipe
Eek!  I = meter-crevice successfully-leap!
 
mu'o mi'e la .bret. = no'u la selckiku
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