From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon May 26 10:07:57 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 26 May 2008 10:07:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1K0gAv-0001dj-6n for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 26 May 2008 10:07:57 -0700 Received: from el-out-1112.google.com ([209.85.162.178]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1K0gAq-0001dT-CM for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 26 May 2008 10:07:57 -0700 Received: by el-out-1112.google.com with SMTP id s27so674391ele.1 for ; Mon, 26 May 2008 10:07:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=HwyFTMrck7IA2WRVmxaI/zCBi66QxKmZLs5VHHwc9kY=; b=rA6P6kWxsRz8ubWSFrf/tDU2f/4v9GCUHHtM+V3g7nyUPXD4k8DC0601zlQbeoinmc+Xs+VIdPJiGTbQQgaY3S+vgzEJqFUKYEGzKGDL+lxmYmSUsrN6ObuJ9szLmDKHMpWj0sj/qqodnYONY68dFh9i/sXrR1B+yUkBp+lLI7A= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; b=v1sdCeCoqVg3VTSTIopJxE3qRdncUjMOFFJ9VXR/jTBQHLr2sAPgkWe9rtoEyB0GgUBgslunF6T/1Oxz9neknacSR5/OsJ7m8aW9B+2HtZyxFG9MKOsMF8olKcMHmNTuYyySbDFAcfxp0Y/U1MWDXoCgwDw+zRmngFlRiGiRqtY= Received: by 10.114.179.1 with SMTP id b1mr249537waf.42.1211821669815; Mon, 26 May 2008 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.114.136.19 with HTTP; Mon, 26 May 2008 10:07:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <2f91285f0805261007r700c3585g201c0255c89844cd@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 26 May 2008 19:07:49 +0200 From: "Vid Sintef" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Yitzik asks his first questions In-Reply-To: <19989B49539344FEAECAB833E0C29DC0@Cohen2> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-2022-JP Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <119C0B344EF0448ABD8F47C56483A7E5@Cohen2> <200805260710.33691.phma@phma.optus.nu> <19989B49539344FEAECAB833E0C29DC0@Cohen2> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 595 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: picos.picos@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Mon, May 26, 2008 at 3:35 PM, Isaac Penzev wrote: >> mi ponse lo cnino karce > > That's what I would expect. > On the other hand, animate objects (persons) aren't usually "owned" (expect > of slavery societies zo'o). I understand you versions for "I've got a wife > and two children" as occasional. Does it mean we need paraphrases every time > when the object of "have" is animate, or there may be some other standard > approaches? The notion of "X owning/having an object Y" is actually peculiar. In Lojban, it's often effectual to first deconstruct such conventions of natlangs into a more neutral sense of "X relates / is related to Y in a certain way". In fact, in "У меня есть карандаш." and "У меня есть сестра.", a word for "is" (есть) is used instead of "have" as in English, so I can imagine this particular Lojbanic objectivity in question wouldn't seem as strange to Russian speakers as to native English speakers. And close translations of these sentences would be something like: .i ra'a mi zasti fa lo pinsi .i ra'a mi zasti fa lo mensi The second one doesn't mention the biological relation between {mi} and {lo mensi} in any obvious way, but that's what "У меня есть сестра." is about. This Russian (Slavic) perspective of "есть" is also shared by Japanese: "私には妹がいます。 / Watashi-niwa Imouto-ga imasu.", literally "Mi-to Sister exist". I feel {jai} bears some interesting possibilities in this kind of expressions. >> da cukta ga'u le jubme > > That may be better. Although it seems a bit literal, and "above" is not > exactly the same as "upon". You can combine {re'o}: {ga'ure'o le jubme}. > What about topic-comment approach here, e.g. {lo > cukta zo'u ri cpana le jubme}? That's grammatical. But I would tend to take it to be connoting that the book's existence, raised by {zo'u}, has been more or less expected by the speaker, where "the book" would have been used instead of "a book" in the English. >> .e'a pei mi samkelci ti > > Is the emotional {pei} obligatory here? {.e'a mi samkelci ti} would be affirmative not interrogative, and its emotion be the speaker's not the listener's; i.e. the speaker self-permits playing the computer game. mu'o mi'e tijlan