From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Jun 13 07:35:29 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1K7ANE-0001U7-32 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:35:28 -0700 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.153]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1K7AN7-0001Qm-C8 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:35:28 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so2868369fga.0 for ; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:35:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=p1wLJBiiXOczA1VcOGBE/BW/j9pY8cTq6HtgBUsN/TE=; b=Gg2p4MgweIXkyc0IRsbeh0KAGCPDSPNd/ICGjA5GOuFK0zqKV3nTXLNBrpl+3oAMIK SZnJ96XzfdyaI2EpTfsgdJbzdkoi/aVPO6KT7vJOG/HopfJboZZoDfCUpd911vgwBldA Ph6OkKQwI0XKN01ZAMOzQyzr8lApsaXnyHb3Q= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=rIH3s1pvTMJKz+3LcsNxNuDErLimqbvJVrrJaNeXJBcn4jrHDy72cS/E9JZZQ/3VR9 L6zTzRsC3S/9lyd/za3HlIjw7Z0bR1rheM5exWuvddNhXuqMOSBR8X9Xfwd8rK4rP4Gm GXcHVT2wGCazHdjlWTLX1wi+8bVN7EzBCFJ4k= Received: by 10.86.68.20 with SMTP id q20mr4120250fga.2.1213367717827; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.89.11 with HTTP; Fri, 13 Jun 2008 07:35:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560806130735g358f46b6m3b7f875fc970d805@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2008 11:35:17 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ri and .e In-Reply-To: <12d58c160806130720w74622369x877f3bb936505c61@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <200806130234.17893.eldrikdo@gmail.com> <925d17560806130637p6ebfc695y903ffe3b0d601e9e@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160806130720w74622369x877f3bb936505c61@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 643 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 6/13/08, komfo,amonan wrote: > On Fri, Jun 13, 2008 at 9:37 AM, Jorge Llambías > wrote: > > > > Here is another hard case: > > > > lo nixli .e lo nanla cu lumci vo'a > > > > Who washes whom? > > In that case, I think, everyone washes everyone, including themselves. > Because I think you ought to expand {vo'a} before expanding {.e}. Hence, > {ko'a .e ko'e lumci vo'a} => > {ko'a .e ko'e lumci ko'a .e ko'e} => > {ko'a lumci ko'a .i je ko'e lumci ko'a .i je ko'a lumci ko'e .i je ko'e > lumci ko'e} > > I don't know if there's a *rule* stating you'd expand {.e} before {vo'a}, > but it wouldn't make sense to me at all. My instinct is the opposite, on the grounds that {.e} appears first and thus I expect it to have wider scope. I would even take {ro prenu cu lumci vo'a} as saying that everyone washes themselves, not that everyone washes everyone. Perhaps a way to make it clear would be to use {mi'u} in the way English uses "self": {ko'a .e ko'e lumci vo'a mi'u}, {ro prenu cu lumci vo'a mi'u}. For the other reading, I would prefer {ko'a .e ko'e lumci ro vo'a}, {ro prenu cu lumci ro vo'a}. mu'o mi'e xorxes