From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 01 11:05:57 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:05:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KDkEk-0000RK-Rk for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:05:57 -0700 Received: from fk-out-0910.google.com ([209.85.128.185]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KDkEd-0000R7-Rm for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:05:54 -0700 Received: by fk-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id 18so4240fks.2 for ; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:05:46 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=9LbY1laaUA36KEn9J5vv4i4izRDRF+azatE9yARXxnE=; b=fbQ9e3Iqaq4SgJbcBa9nUi3WRK8R69JtQwuUQHl2SrkZhp2X6fc5OcWTottuQ8EIWg 27HOnP8kwpoWqUPuP8QU8Y47uncy8GNGo9n55iHw2UKmilnCwgboPtavL7UJZk3U0Op3 udD2w+wF0bEzJpHcVw1+CaHxCnz5niiIZkV8k= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=No8wieeo7d2ivEaHK7lzqeubg+4wiUr137ZH37vC+Wk6CfoOZA9v7YFXYtqwqoIDbL Yy9xD1mecgLa8bdSpXWTKzA7U7ZtHQ4jibeEYAIvkh7WOhtexD64A3Zaqs2ykllDiJZv Y89GuK/HloTsTTRp5L2B7qPUA+CfQ389IWuv8= Received: by 10.86.63.19 with SMTP id l19mr7907835fga.77.1214935546054; Tue, 01 Jul 2008 11:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.89.11 with HTTP; Tue, 1 Jul 2008 11:05:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560807011105i4e5d0d6bsaca750e3f13bd347@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 1 Jul 2008 15:05:46 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: tanru order In-Reply-To: <96f789a60807010911t711b869et30c635b37ab35e66@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30806281910q2e8c38e1x1efdd2b8e4ef87ab@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560806290645l23118bbeyaa71d7dfa0b13bdb@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30806290816t5663ce55s341e7eb9f3762986@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560806290845n1b2a591vfa042cb4bb7a5f7a@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807010911t711b869et30c635b37ab35e66@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 664 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 7/1/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > You know, xorxes, I think I can finally put my finger on what's > always bothered me about your interpretations of those tanru > orderings. IF the tanru had been "ka vajni kei mutce" (An > importance-type of muchness") THEN I could see your POV that it means > "mutce be lo ka vajni") It doesn't exactly mean that, but it would be more precise, yes. From most to least precise: mutce lo ka vajni ka vajni kei mutce vajni mutce > But without the ka, "vajni mutce" means (to > me) an important muchness, that is to say, that the extreme thing > itself is important, but not necessarily that it extreme in the > quailty of being important. Why would you take it to be extreme in some unmentioned property in preference to the one mentioned in the seltau? > For example, I can easily see "mi vajni > mutce be lo ka bebna" --- I am an important superfool. Yes, when an explicit property is put in x2, then that one has priority, no doubt about it. > Things in the > seltau position tend to be interpreted adjectivally/adverbially, as > well they should be, since they are supposed to modify the tertau > (which would therefore be treated nounally, verbally, (or adverbially > if they followed by another brivla)) What does "adjectivally/adverbially" mean in Lojbanic terms? I don't see how in {vajni mutce}, {vajni} fails to modify the tertau: it provides a good choice of property for its x2 place. Do you have the same objections for {vajni zmadu}, {vajni mleca}, {vajni traji}? > Without the ka in the tanru, it > also requires mental massaging to get "vajni mutce" into "mutce be lo > ka vajni". Compared to what? What is the explicit meaning of {mutce vajni}? (I mean explicit in Lojban terms, expanding the tanru.) > I think one test to figure out which gismu belongs in the > tertau spot is to figure out which is more germaine. And the easiest > way to test that is to test dropping each term from the sentenc,e and > see which one most obscures the meaning when it is left out: > > na vajni fa le du'u porsi makau ki'u le nu abu ka'e > spuda no le re preti > > na mutce fa le du'u porsi makau ki'u le nu abu ka'e > spuda no le re preti > > Hmmm... we either have something that's not important or something > that's not much. It's a close call in this case, but I think "vajni" > wins out as being more germaine, IMHO If you only say {ti na mutce}, naturally I have no idea what you may mean, I will ask {mutce ma}. But if there is some clue in the context, for example if we have been discussing things with a given property, or if we use an informative seltau, I can figure out what the implicit x2 is. mu'o mi'e xorxes