From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jul 02 10:42:47 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:42:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KE6Lu-0002O2-U7 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:42:47 -0700 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.154]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KE6Lq-0002Nr-5g for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:42:46 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so175345fga.0 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:42:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=fcu+VIoYijaEnKuSJaxSJtsEfHHre+sLDEBi8J4d5iI=; b=Sz0WpSURxSflEpdDHyGz8fjXMZaFpshm0V1ummHm3L4yes2A/8rtwIt9xshXuCZ2FX FYTqsuEbMIZT+ZOZChQAOfIpWfefBmvaIMBun80DFrSnDniIt1Pzg+kA/EwpgeGQ5ni9 JGg3+PY/94mePKmNo5dkaVIU0Wkkg4E4gYtsk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=xVPqb3VnWrvOL2KEG28L/HwpMDzszQsZ8wNKpEr2qf/t3w2SL9C7FDviwPIEBrr8/U D43hbY+kOC+MFclCxUxenrEgnWr4cx26UK4e5yqfJ+eob2+TfVJnNOHWifzwSC68nFBg 5GOZ9At+n/9f8NkdWHEqs+mKuBcW99rRNE8MI= Received: by 10.86.90.13 with SMTP id n13mr9365374fgb.3.1215020560383; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 10:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.28.10 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 10:42:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560807021042q167d8f8ao97997df117acc771@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 14:42:40 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: tanru order In-Reply-To: <96f789a60807020854l1ceb2468hdc9212d52261c699@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <737b61f30806281910q2e8c38e1x1efdd2b8e4ef87ab@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560806290645l23118bbeyaa71d7dfa0b13bdb@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30806290816t5663ce55s341e7eb9f3762986@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560806290845n1b2a591vfa042cb4bb7a5f7a@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807010911t711b869et30c635b37ab35e66@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807011105i4e5d0d6bsaca750e3f13bd347@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807020854l1ceb2468hdc9212d52261c699@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 667 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 7/2/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > You had earlier > asserted that you liked "vajni mutce" because it (and I'm paraphrasing > here) required no complexity to expand it to "mutce be lo ka vajni". Not quite. My point was that the expansion required for {mutce vajni} is more complex than that for {vajni mutce}. I didn't say {vajni mutce} requires no complexity. > > What is the explicit meaning of {mutce vajni}? > > (I mean explicit in Lojban terms, expanding the tanru.) > > The explicit meaning? Hmm... possibly something along the lines of > "vajni je mutce be lo ka vajni" Right, that's more or less what I expect. Which is more complex than a plain {mutce be lo ka vajni} > But that proves nothing. I would > probably expand "barda gerku" along similar lines: "gerku je barda be > fi le'e gerku" Probably, yes. What about {gerku barda}, for comparison? If we have to choose between {barda gerku} and {gerku barda} to refer to a dog, {barda gerku} will be the clear winner, so I would certainly agree it is better. > I ask you -- how would you expand "blanu tsani"? > Possibly "tsani je blanu"? Yes. > What about "tsani blanu"? "blanu [be] > tai{/pa'a} le'e tsani"? Possibly something like that, yes. > (Notice, btw, that the expansion "blanu je > tsani" means exactly the same as "tsani je blanu", and yet still would > be an expansion of the former, not the latter, tanru, despite the > order of the gismu being switched). Yes. > It's an established rule that the > tanru as a whole may refer to things that are not really in either > category of the compononent gismu (although you would be at great risk > of loss of intelligibility), What would be an example where a tanru does not refer to something in the category of the tertau? > (BTW, I notice the refgram itself (which I know you are reflexively > iconoclastic towards, no matter what it says), in chapter 5, ex. 4.1 > uses "mutce bo barda") I have no objection to {mutce vajni}, in fact I use such forms all the time. My only objection is to saying that it is "better" than {vajni mutce}. They are either both equally good or, by a criterion of simplicity, {vajni mutce} is better. If one is to argue that {mutce vajni} is better, then I think one should explain by what criterion it is better. mu'o mi'e xorxes