From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jul 02 17:54:51 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:54:52 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KED63-0007h3-US for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:54:51 -0700 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.154]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KED5u-0007gq-LL for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:54:51 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so232156fga.0 for ; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:54:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=pc00pQEYYDxm0dbOn2Uvp3+o6XctfpNZ6k5IZ2E6HSM=; b=J/2iBuscprOVA1f7U2HDwJAzwMCGhcvuAAJLAfHNfsM8IFaduFusOy8en505h7eFmq e25X42OwUSsTLlvElylOK+xjxbHEdbipB1dv9oMt/JhODqPB366I5OM5wryXjTKprejx xW3/H0ORDHHVRfUCU4++XM3EVJBcprXAk9Z/E= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=APLwnCY783jmP6haQblVCmL1In8RG8nixndQV1oKdr+ANBMjTlIK6uQ2bZmBcriHyg v4GXXlDStGnX2JJz90tO4o9WRF5LLPYzfUEYPfkcA5PRbAbaIKM96mH6kOxANFsBQkka LAV5H6eL2RyTH/3gZfKma2wrDDempvA8G8d30= Received: by 10.86.63.19 with SMTP id l19mr9629280fga.60.1215045880662; Wed, 02 Jul 2008 17:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.28.10 with HTTP; Wed, 2 Jul 2008 17:44:40 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560807021744w39184ea4ie59d2eb8173f9b3e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 2 Jul 2008 21:44:40 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Implications of partly negated, commutative logical connections In-Reply-To: <200807030148.13022.eldrikdo@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <200807030148.13022.eldrikdo@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 670 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Jul 2, 2008 at 8:48 PM, namor wrote: > Hi, > I'm looking at: > {mi nelci do .ijanai do prami mi} -- I like you if you love me. > > We should be able to swap the structure. So it's: > {do prami mi .inaja mi nelci do} -- You love me only if I like you. > > These two structures - and therefore their translations - should be equal, > but this is very very unintuitive to me. Try: It is true that I like you if it is true that you love me. It is true that you love me only if it is true that I like you. > The first structure sounds to me as if "your liking me" is a cause for "I like > you". > The second structure turns cause and effect upside down in my head. Logical connectives say nothing about cause and effect. They only tell you how the truth values of the two statements are related. The connected statement will be true in these three cases: It is true that I like you and it is true that you love me. It is true that I like you and it is false that you love me. It is false that I like you and it is false that you love me. and false when: It is false that I like you and it is true that you love me. But there is no information given about what causes what, or indeed whether any is caused by the other. English "if" does have causality connotations, that's why it's not a very accurate translation of {ijanai} or {inaja}. > Did I make a mistake? > If not, how to better translate the structures, so that the mean the same..? > > How to make clear what is cause and what is effect with logical connections? To talk about causality, don't use logical connectives. For example: mi nelci do .imu'ibo do prami mi I like you because you love me. da'i mi nelci do .iva'obo da'i do prami mi I would like you if you would love me. mu'o mi'e xorxes