From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 22 09:24:19 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:24:19 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLKex-00019A-2k for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:24:19 -0700 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.152]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLKer-00018K-Tz for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:24:18 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so949101fga.0 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:24:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=LJK227pVTyW9DuJtwul49V1YGfXrG7c1IM6Cqqbuvm0=; b=ZCcWlkVTIjKevOG9e2QO3ZwhuYmXV89xWFQTxwjY6BwPS/DasqM+RP+SCtqEnkxN4l Ic1jWtbJQeUXBXpcGY7FQKBF3wwaUItQdVo8h3h3OPMFEuCgFKbUaN2mSVDPipb+sc0c 9ieQfUTPt3/dg2tE8q91LdxLAsMFZ0jgjjE5Y= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=P1vrwnqjBUbYPQHDDCeXz1C5jX+02iuR4LmO/7PZbf942kRbh8chdJ6IF7eGuBBJfK frRaigmnI1jqPcoM0EjOTzVTUZGMlWbfyAn+9lesm0b8SJ48PHRMyrgyDidXL3Yz2l3G va5K8FG+2vveQIPixV5Ag2BOa4aZ1PLfkjt6w= Received: by 10.86.59.2 with SMTP id h2mr6504177fga.37.1216743846178; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.28.10 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 09:24:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:24:06 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a In-Reply-To: <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0807211642n258bb4d2t9a98c9589c037c60@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160807211705p6cdd29bcocc5d537a3e91cc3f@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160807211720o16c7ab0dn7f6a066b0c9486d2@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807211731r55d2acbcw2d3a3098f1a0775b@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807211735hb755883rfcdb56e118a0aa7e@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160807211801y5e0652e5wa868adf6e9b2c80c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220522q6283b3d9ja3c2719107c3a8b0@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220548r3f94b667w5ec9a5a2af89c762@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220629m32d0ae9eld1ac1acbc2d3af94@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 707 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 9:29 AM, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:22 AM, Jorge Llambías wrote: > >> > > >> > lo nanmu poi mi viska ro lo karce poi ke'a vecnu ke'a > >> > The man who I saw all the cars he sold. > >> > > >> > In English, there is a logically equivalent reversed version: > >> > > >> > The man who sold only those cars I saw. > >> > > >> > But in Lojban we don't have a restricted quantifier "only", so > >> > we don't seem to have that option. > >> > >> lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu ro lo po'o karce poi mi viska ke'a > >> ? > > > > The "ro" is wrong, because I might have seen some other > > car he didn't sell. > > > > And the po'o says that he didn't sell _anything_ besides > > the cars I saw, but what we need to say is that he didn't sell > > _any car_ besides the ones I saw. He might have sold other > > things. > > Oh, I thought that's what you wanted. You wanted to say the only cars > he sold were those that you saw, but he might not have sold all of > those? I wanted something logically equivalent to: > >> > lo nanmu poi mi viska ro lo karce poi ke'a vecnu ke'a > >> > The man who I saw all the cars he sold. but that will also move "vecnu" up and "viska" down. > lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi po'o mi viska ke'a > > works fine for that. "The man who sold cars that were (only those) seen by me. {po'o} seems to apply to the restriction on the cars, not to the cars. I read that as "He sold cars that are only restricted to my having seen them", but it doesn't preclude his selling other cars as well. mu'o mi'e xorxes