From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 22 13:07:33 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:07:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLO8z-00082T-2E for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:07:33 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.251]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLO8w-00082L-3q for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:07:33 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so1618767rvf.46 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:07:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=n/wyyJzl/lPwUgz2OnCsBghYb3JitCkK/bBB6XuvTIg=; b=BcHzChRkRPdPfM3LS06k5jCjPl8FisJtNNhiIivUK5PzK1tPZiWgehxArjeD8WmgIu YkhNb9+Hzcs7ZM9VOcfakjYSu1QAo7n6HB733bDXGKPaQ3jV2pcBGlu2LiA2DUOtOekD apfIPN1xdGYwvPC1S5GhG2eLg1HLgP0s0H7WE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=gmZEv+AuB6ZhmRtz2nU+frqR9TtBYyHiTjSbx5hMPuGhHTWlHECdehiQNwbYxS5G6V 9O5L6abrFCwTRmzUaUONm9lUVC0dhuoBiaBlORVgLA91SVYvnALmEY74UUGsvgit02rT HYonrW0Cx0fyDbpZ9zjNeTQwGjXYr8W9OEpbA= Received: by 10.141.106.14 with SMTP id i14mr118149rvm.178.1216757249196; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.179.16 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:07:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <96f789a60807221307k6063b0ecp29233454f1d6da0@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:07:29 -0400 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a In-Reply-To: <925d17560807221100y6de75a3ep38d488b7c6aa4d1a@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0807211642n258bb4d2t9a98c9589c037c60@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807211735hb755883rfcdb56e118a0aa7e@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160807211801y5e0652e5wa868adf6e9b2c80c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220522q6283b3d9ja3c2719107c3a8b0@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220548r3f94b667w5ec9a5a2af89c762@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220629m32d0ae9eld1ac1acbc2d3af94@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220944g64b25921hb301ef3936e7e052@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807221100y6de75a3ep38d488b7c6aa4d1a@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 710 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> > >> Well, I think we'll have to disagree on this point. To me "poi >> po'o" means "restricted solely to". > > OK, but that is not what {po'o} normally does. The usual > function of {po'o} is to indicate that the thing it marks is > the only one that applies. > But it is doing that. Like all discursives, when what it's marking is a (for lack of a better word) grouping cmavo, its scope is the entire group contained within that cmavo: le xunre tamca po'o -> the red tomato (only) (i.e. out of the red things, the only tomato) le xunre po'o tamca -> the only /red/ tomato (i.e out of all the tomatos, the only one that's red) le po'o xunre tamca -> the only red-tomato (i.e. the only thing here which is a red tomato) Similarly lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi po'o mi viska ke'a -> lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi (mi viska ke'a) po'o -> A man who sold cars, which were (the ones I saw) only >> Without the po'o there, we >> already are restricting the set ("the cars that were seen by me" as >> opposed to using noi, which would not restrict it), but adding the >> po'o at this point inthe utterance adds exclusivity as well. > > Without {po'o} we could restrict it further. For example: > {lo karce poi mi viska ke'a zi'e poi do ponse ke'a}. > With {poi po'o} (as I understand it) that would not make sense. I'm not sure I understand the last sentence? > I could say: {lo karce poi po'onai mi viska ke'a zi'e poi ji'a > do ponse ke'a}: "the cars not only that I see but also that > you own". > I would translate that sentence the same way, but not sure you and I would see the same meaning? To me it would include cars that you own but I do not see. --gejyspa