From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 22 16:04:04 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:04:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLQto-0001LS-Az for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:04:04 -0700 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.169]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLQtl-0001LL-UX for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:04:04 -0700 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so1646629wfg.25 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:04:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=tHpmjtGF0By7eejfo9IDSjpcPjn4Ib1Asd9czMTkA7k=; b=w2lOOYML20NgNYLlBP1Gmmao2M8eFpVdkiZEigrYLCambFZT/1M3eA9kMwAn9AY1HN 4ScmGoxn8i8oyQC6bHU113z17980qSEsa8yNdK1DKxIfwoHnBO3zAUDIri4M8TeT+FYa JTTTBQqMgf8QgcuDTGqsZW7FdJEbC423SAZ4I= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=EESb4cN1jNeG45GfRO2x8qOThy0WMV+LA1krvmtWb4+zvmTIIkB3wiiJ9UX2sDRh+u Qh9p9Je3VzetbWGk4bEZBqeNXAhN8y63UGmecQR4Cm8TwSm+ik7W/Wux40rElKCK5Q6/ UrL9XjjLmi6683PxAS1ROVcYM7Su017joJ5wA= Received: by 10.142.201.3 with SMTP id y3mr2060772wff.279.1216767841045; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:04:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.207.5 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 16:04:00 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <737b61f30807221604g6689eda4v963736d5c708936b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 18:04:00 -0500 From: "Chris Capel" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a In-Reply-To: <737b61f30807221555w581ce6b9idcf0f4e11cc126ac@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0807211642n258bb4d2t9a98c9589c037c60@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220522q6283b3d9ja3c2719107c3a8b0@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220548r3f94b667w5ec9a5a2af89c762@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220629m32d0ae9eld1ac1acbc2d3af94@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220944g64b25921hb301ef3936e7e052@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807221100y6de75a3ep38d488b7c6aa4d1a@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807221307k6063b0ecp29233454f1d6da0@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30807221555w581ce6b9idcf0f4e11cc126ac@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 713 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: pdf23ds@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:55, Chris Capel wrote: > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 15:07, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: >>> I could say: {lo karce poi po'onai mi viska ke'a zi'e poi ji'a >>> do ponse ke'a}: "the cars not only that I see but also that >>> you own". >>> >> I would translate that sentence the same way, but not sure you and >> I would see the same meaning? To me it would include cars that you >> own but I do not see. > > Hmm. I don't think the English Jorge gave allows your interpretation, > Michael. And as far as the Lojban, {po'onai} is the default > interpretation, and is redundant here. It's only there for emphasis. > Are you thinking that the set of cars included is an intersection of I mean "union of" > (the entire set, restricted by the first {poi}) and (the entire set, > restricted by the second poi)? I would think the interpretation would > be ((the entire set, restricted by the first {poi}), restricted by the > second {poi}). Of course, it comes down to the interpretation of {zi'e}, on which point CLL appears to be ambiguous. But really, if you wanted a union and not an intersection, why not use {joi} and repeat the sumti? Would the "union" interpretation of {zi'e} be convenient to justify the increased ambiguty for the sake of the increased brevity? Chris Capel -- "What is it like to be a bat? What is it like to bat a bee? What is it like to be a bee being batted? What is it like to be a batted bee?" -- The Mind's I (Hofstadter, Dennet)