From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jul 22 17:05:09 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:05:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLRqv-0004hU-Cr for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:05:09 -0700 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.153]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLRqq-0004gx-Vb for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:05:09 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so1045339fga.0 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:05:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=NJ5TWtyz2MTx6O5LbbCfM/hkmfOMqpKpLpN1QNXh59o=; b=iOpQgLRV8d2sL8IXHSTkcm7u/afndaOQrhCez2NxXRz0wbbAA6szw1f6T2s7QLYTnf SV7wdAkUBitPVPfiHuzgIWHVZSStNa/wOBvQSrn8ftUwNba58qOfmmp7SXMWG7J8W3Dc KmzBQMUxpoazQNN3aLgyugKYXRtJ8bEfKycP4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=dHX+3qQVsl/J37p99dewXxZDf0Yxo6bbCSqeX2h42V3gdOPNB5CRAQu78wQne2SBwy k1CuckTAYw7vn/iaCjYIuMqeC9edgF/i9uSOqoBxeteH8D9hAOxl3332XCnGkhZoUszH 6Ep3nMus1r9A9Hj2xwHg512SD+kUZMtcNadfE= Received: by 10.86.52.6 with SMTP id z6mr7064866fgz.48.1216771501504; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.28.10 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 17:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560807221705u4d299d9em56806f6d6aba7961@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2008 21:05:01 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a In-Reply-To: <96f789a60807221307k6063b0ecp29233454f1d6da0@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0807211642n258bb4d2t9a98c9589c037c60@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160807211801y5e0652e5wa868adf6e9b2c80c@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220522q6283b3d9ja3c2719107c3a8b0@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220548r3f94b667w5ec9a5a2af89c762@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220629m32d0ae9eld1ac1acbc2d3af94@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220944g64b25921hb301ef3936e7e052@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807221100y6de75a3ep38d488b7c6aa4d1a@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807221307k6063b0ecp29233454f1d6da0@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 714 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: > > On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > >> > > >> Well, I think we'll have to disagree on this point. To me "poi > >> po'o" means "restricted solely to". > > > > OK, but that is not what {po'o} normally does. The usual > > function of {po'o} is to indicate that the thing it marks is > > the only one that applies. > > > But it is doing that. Like all discursives, when what it's marking > is a (for lack of a better word) grouping cmavo, its scope is the > entire group contained within that cmavo: Yes, and the construct in this case is the whole poi-clause. > lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi po'o mi viska ke'a -> > lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi (mi viska ke'a) po'o -> Right. > A man who sold cars, which were (the ones I saw) only But (mi viska ke'a) is a bridi while (the ones I saw) is a term. The English as bracketed doesn't correspond to the Lojban. > > {lo karce poi mi viska ke'a zi'e poi do ponse ke'a}. > > With {poi po'o} (as I understand it) that would not make sense. > > I'm not sure I understand the last sentence? I meant that replacing {poi mi viska ke'a} with {poi po'o mi viska ke'a} in that sentence, with my reading of {po'o}, would make little sense. It would be similar to saying {mi po'o .e do broda}. > > I could say: {lo karce poi po'onai mi viska ke'a zi'e poi ji'a > > do ponse ke'a}: "the cars not only that I see but also that > > you own". > > > I would translate that sentence the same way, but not sure you and > I would see the same meaning? To me it would include cars that you > own but I do not see. You are saying {ro da poi broda zi'e brode} = {ro da poi broda .e ro de poi brode}, while I'm saying it is {ro da poi broda gi'e brode}. I think the CLL description fits my inerpretation: . BTW, in very early Lojban, {zi'e} was part of a series, with {zi'a}, {zi'o} and {zi'u} for the other relative clause connectives,and I think also {na zi'e nai} and such. With those, my {zi'a} would correspond to your {zi'e}. If I remember correctly, in the Esther translation you used {zi'e} with the inner {gi'e} rather than the outer {.e} interpretation too, but I can't access lojban.org right now to check. mu'o mi'e xorxes