From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jul 23 09:45:38 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:45:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLhT7-0001PL-Ql for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:45:37 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.246]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLhT4-0001Or-7Q for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:45:37 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so1990760rvf.46 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:45:33 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=SPwlx7iXKlTJhLzhPo32WZSX3WUhANdV1ZiAsFi4oaI=; b=Y4CrB4zK/k70SatOfqWn1Gcsh2oTenUy9G/BqQUwXdM545D8lmtaj/0hOv93uxu/6B kGtrDB3VS2c8KcMPaTZQdXk3mmhp+ZgD0dUdFB49wFx0jalAFbmmsKbqUqmZMU7fAytH 6ajwam+7wkhXaofaHS36MFxpGwM5ck7fhEzAk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=ODnXWWkaLUdqE8uDO5fjcVl9ytPyH2YhTE3sFvvVJ2uzhtEtv2K+kR9euImZ62F/ek aAwodkTQbPVlMEre2MozjOheM9ysLkvVxcbyFMbdKxH0w6tRQKKANXY8Si3loTlXxlyC w8U4/Lks33OE038j6M5SWxkvpbe7criakJcHY= Received: by 10.140.174.11 with SMTP id w11mr677rve.18.1216831533361; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.179.16 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 09:45:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <96f789a60807230945j42b86b9aw2570dcf8ded38235@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 12:45:33 -0400 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a In-Reply-To: <737b61f30807221604g6689eda4v963736d5c708936b@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0807211642n258bb4d2t9a98c9589c037c60@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220548r3f94b667w5ec9a5a2af89c762@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220629m32d0ae9eld1ac1acbc2d3af94@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220944g64b25921hb301ef3936e7e052@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807221100y6de75a3ep38d488b7c6aa4d1a@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807221307k6063b0ecp29233454f1d6da0@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30807221555w581ce6b9idcf0f4e11cc126ac@mail.gmail.com> <737b61f30807221604g6689eda4v963736d5c708936b@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 718 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 7:04 PM, Chris Capel wrote: > On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 17:55, Chris Capel wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 15:07, Michael Turniansky wrote: >>> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: >>>> I could say: {lo karce poi po'onai mi viska ke'a zi'e poi ji'a >>>> do ponse ke'a}: "the cars not only that I see but also that >>>> you own". >>>> >>> I would translate that sentence the same way, but not sure you and >>> I would see the same meaning? To me it would include cars that you >>> own but I do not see. >> >> Hmm. I don't think the English Jorge gave allows your interpretation, >> Michael. And as far as the Lojban, {po'onai} is the default >> interpretation, and is redundant here. It's only there for emphasis. >> Are you thinking that the set of cars included is an intersection of > > I mean "union of" > >> (the entire set, restricted by the first {poi}) and (the entire set, >> restricted by the second poi)? I would think the interpretation would >> be ((the entire set, restricted by the first {poi}), restricted by the >> second {poi}). > > Of course, it comes down to the interpretation of {zi'e}, on which > point CLL appears to be ambiguous. But really, if you wanted a union > and not an intersection, why not use {joi} and repeat the sumti? Would > the "union" interpretation of {zi'e} be convenient to justify the > increased ambiguty for the sake of the increased brevity? > Don't get me wrong, Chris. I didn't express myself well. I agree that "lo karce poi po'onai mi viska ke'a zi'e poi ji'a do ponse ke'a" in isolation, refers only to cars that both I saw and also you own (intersection, it has to fulfill both parts). And I agree that in isolation, the po'onai doesn't add anything. What I was saying was that in the context of the original sentence about selling (the aformentioned selbri), the po'onai means that you have sold cars that I have seen and you own, but you didn't just sell those that I have seen. (This isn't a construct I would probably use in real life, btw) --gejyspa