From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jul 23 10:02:22 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:02:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLhjK-00030n-1g for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:02:22 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.248]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLhjH-00030U-1O for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:02:21 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so1997519rvf.46 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:02:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=fMbuiCC4gpbstaBlE9iaycy8EA4RkRcu1rA30VyQSUE=; b=Lmg5BXYxDLcuQXBrmiN+H4ckHXsLpbv49JdceFHADSACr4rT9m9mutJEixMXLkftXj 1l2GCtFg6KQTx72vaRyzB6AqUzP/yd9phexXNZHJ9s2sjUxnEEYgAw9yClb7lCpF8k/7 VN4++mZMyXkelWLUTEGrTJi5d60DKjGoSvDVs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=mS4TXVhKGfFSf4lCBNAaHHk5xV+DlsUCFsg6jYnkwR9Bnj+yVFWXk1LeC6C1E7/7Du MHmY/jMRa0Qvy9Pg/cRInMKF0JrtDFyD2bwCJWNZ/LjZdLyzTJM7vj35d93SlRCCp9B/ Ckob74lYA/sVthuoNR1RZ8oNso2ykLN99SBCs= Received: by 10.141.18.12 with SMTP id v12mr173444rvi.183.1216832537986; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.179.16 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:02:17 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <96f789a60807231002u236b1aacj6b0ee1181859d5ed@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 13:02:17 -0400 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a In-Reply-To: <925d17560807221705u4d299d9em56806f6d6aba7961@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0807211642n258bb4d2t9a98c9589c037c60@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220522q6283b3d9ja3c2719107c3a8b0@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220548r3f94b667w5ec9a5a2af89c762@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220629m32d0ae9eld1ac1acbc2d3af94@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220944g64b25921hb301ef3936e7e052@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807221100y6de75a3ep38d488b7c6aa4d1a@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807221307k6063b0ecp29233454f1d6da0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807221705u4d299d9em56806f6d6aba7961@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 719 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 8:05 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: > On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 22, 2008 at 2:00 PM, Jorge Llambías wrote: >> > On 7/22/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: >> >> > >> >> Well, I think we'll have to disagree on this point. To me "poi >> >> po'o" means "restricted solely to". >> > >> > OK, but that is not what {po'o} normally does. The usual >> > function of {po'o} is to indicate that the thing it marks is >> > the only one that applies. >> > >> But it is doing that. Like all discursives, when what it's marking >> is a (for lack of a better word) grouping cmavo, its scope is the >> entire group contained within that cmavo: > > Yes, and the construct in this case is the whole poi-clause. > >> lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi po'o mi viska ke'a -> >> lo nanmu poi ke'a vecnu lo karce poi (mi viska ke'a) po'o -> > > Right. > >> A man who sold cars, which were (the ones I saw) only > > But (mi viska ke'a) is a bridi while (the ones I saw) is a term. > The English as bracketed doesn't correspond to the Lojban. > That's a lack on the part of English. If you consider that "poi mi viska ke'a" is basically semantically equivalent to "po'u lo viska be fa mi bei ke'a" (or, more naturally, "po'u lo se viska be mi"), you might see what I mean. If we were to speak more stilted English, the original might be rendered "A man who sold cars, which (fulfilled-the-condition I saw them) solely" >> > {lo karce poi mi viska ke'a zi'e poi do ponse ke'a}. >> > With {poi po'o} (as I understand it) that would not make sense. >> >> I'm not sure I understand the last sentence? > > I meant that replacing {poi mi viska ke'a} with > {poi po'o mi viska ke'a} in that sentence, with my reading of {po'o}, > would make little sense. It would be similar to saying {mi po'o .e do broda}. > Are you saying that "mi po'o .e do broda" doesn't make sense to you? It has meaning to me. It means that you broda, and no one else but me also brodas. Consider something like the English, "Besides Johnny, no one else in the class but me knows all state capitals." >> > I could say: {lo karce poi po'onai mi viska ke'a zi'e poi ji'a >> > do ponse ke'a}: "the cars not only that I see but also that >> > you own". >> > >> I would translate that sentence the same way, but not sure you and >> I would see the same meaning? To me it would include cars that you >> own but I do not see. > > You are saying {ro da poi broda zi'e brode} = {ro da poi broda .e ro > de poi brode} I most certainly am NOT saying that. "ro da poi broda zi'e brode" is not grammatical. > while I'm saying it is {ro da poi broda gi'e brode}. I think the CLL > description > fits my inerpretation: . > > BTW, in very early Lojban, {zi'e} was part of a series, with {zi'a}, {zi'o} > and {zi'u} for the other relative clause connectives,and I think also > {na zi'e nai} and such. With those, my {zi'a} would correspond to your {zi'e}. > > If I remember correctly, in the Esther translation you used {zi'e} with > the inner {gi'e} rather than the outer {.e} interpretation too, but I can't > access lojban.org right now to check. --gejyspa