From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jul 23 11:08:54 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:08:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLili-0007Sn-2H for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:08:54 -0700 Received: from fg-out-1718.google.com ([72.14.220.155]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KLilf-0007Se-8A for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:08:54 -0700 Received: by fg-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id e12so1250595fga.0 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:08:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=r4MzdGobKwxR7mtBbkV/X5B2WfeMqNvkhT/z7Upq9Ss=; b=fIkRRejkhcOBlOuklYgYeiF6DGogkBF8f/O1Rw3rKLe+UDfUn7Y5c4CnKTdzNJm8Ti WLRwgKQto5GGP5JHj6CT1o3wS4JGvPJydf6tLcpiOPNTdwL+v60kdqKOq+3+3uvyPkWz viLUMn6n75rLw9WmM004wnIYyKFjzCuF4JNvY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=T8pr63tzhpIBTVRWTpvlycSYHn0pZI1UuqbvA2GIN54jYMUJh/Qk7179azZ/L6CtlZ LQsQlab/3daiBEMPYyWs8EjTpxxvm80eCiIeLIQuh/ganWbWPor5nxm8Eit1zce12MpY Ozwgc764r++Ysew74/caNplxISnhoabH/cM5k= Received: by 10.86.36.11 with SMTP id j11mr372556fgj.7.1216836529671; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.86.28.10 with HTTP; Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:08:49 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <925d17560807231108h3fe518a0n717b3514fed1bd7b@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2008 15:08:49 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: ke'a In-Reply-To: <96f789a60807231045o13ee488fs72159c6211684dd9@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <2f91285f0807211642n258bb4d2t9a98c9589c037c60@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220812o6e1e7e00jf26a0c79d24c85@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807220924k4a67e3aejd2bd64867a4b16ba@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807220944g64b25921hb301ef3936e7e052@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807221100y6de75a3ep38d488b7c6aa4d1a@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807221307k6063b0ecp29233454f1d6da0@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807221705u4d299d9em56806f6d6aba7961@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807231002u236b1aacj6b0ee1181859d5ed@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560807231027nc1eff47xdce48aebd3f90fd@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60807231045o13ee488fs72159c6211684dd9@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 722 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On 7/23/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: > > I agree that this means the intersection of those two things, > covering only those that both went and were not summoned. The > question has never been one of how zi'e and poi interacts, but how > that interacts with po'o to modify the argument of a bridi. I believe you did object to the way I read {zi'e}, but I agree that that is just a side issue, which I introduced to explain how I understand what it means for {po'onai} to mark a relative clause. For me {po'onai} marking a clause indicates that the relative clause in question is not the only one that applies. So in my example there was a second relative clause marked with {ji'a} to stress that that second clause also applies. (NOT to indicate that the things that satisfy the second clause are added to the things that satisfy the first clause.) > If we say > that those people were killed, does that mean that ONLY those people > are killed? Not without the use of a po'o. And depending on where > the po'o is positioned will determine who else might have been killed. In my reading {po'o} indicates "this clause is the only restriction that applies", in your reading, {po'o} indicates "only the people that satisfy this clause are involved". Your reading may be valid as a convention, but it is not the usual way {po'o} operates, because you are using it to mark a whole clause, not to mark a sumti that refers to the people. mu'o mi'e xorxes