From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Aug 04 11:16:49 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 04 Aug 2008 11:16:49 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KQ4bx-0002rW-1o for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 11:16:49 -0700 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.175]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KQ4bu-0002rO-3C for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 11:16:48 -0700 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so2078054wfg.25 for ; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 11:16:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=CfHYMCGa6S1ywfnA24efV62I9iwAUdUZT15TkAq+Yto=; b=NpHGVZw19dwoo+CECVv/GFi7M4Y3G05iWNjte8KSCvQN/qr3uR3gga5s++qHizbjA+ g6OgieMxDyMmQvFmwEmEtXE4Rc5lcV2C2H21oWwTIQNCu38jUIlVsSB3/AtpblF0TeLG ZvRxD2GsbHJeqKRyo63QNPjkfQLns91GyZaLM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=jkbKPOD0V9bbM1ZqmPQQkoJf6RBGPt/1btvG2SsTYnYjBwPRFUMBw43Az/MmOVTge7 W6dLzk3tdmXvi6KtC0YD+9dElCPrFt4dPSiiyVVjgor8bz6tg7MPnHMHMwWTd0TQMRKR guY4W9sFyrRd2teQCyavn7w9Y02mwfUSmeKLU= Received: by 10.142.245.10 with SMTP id s10mr2985920wfh.203.1217873804499; Mon, 04 Aug 2008 11:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.51.12 with HTTP; Mon, 4 Aug 2008 11:16:44 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 14:16:44 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: trying poe poetry translation In-Reply-To: <4897395A.8000500@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_24790_23815138.1217873804490" References: <489718EF.5010308@gmail.com> <4897395A.8000500@gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.2 X-Spam-Score-Int: 2 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 780 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_24790_23815138.1217873804490 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 8/4/08, peter hering wrote: > > > I appreciate it and jbofi'e digests it without complaint, but what would > Poe think? > Here's a looser attempt of my own: pu zu so'i lo nanca be li so'i lo gugde noi jibni lo xamsi cu se xabju lo slabu la'a nixli noi zo .anabeLIS. cmene ke'a mi .i ny jmive co pensi lo po'o za'i ny prami gi'e se prami vau ro'u mi Esperanto has over the years produced its own literature. > Indeed, they do have a head start. Since they started with all of the vocabulary of Europe, a double head start. But it'll be the tortoise and the hare... Does lojban have its great authors and poets? > and speaking of the tortoise and the hare, :) one of the great poets of Lojban's history is Nitcion, who's greek & one of whose efforts is some translations of Aesop: http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/aesop There's a bunch of texts up at http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Texts+In+Lojban There's a lot of stuff there to dig through! Hmm I wonder what all that would look like bound up into a nice hardcover.. One author who's working now is la gejyspa, who just completed a wonderful translation of Esther (which is too hard for me, so I wouldn't recommend it to you!), and who just pointed out to me an older translation of his, "Terry the Tiger Visits the Big City", which would be a good read for ninpre: http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=la+teris.+po%27u+lo+tirxu+cu+vitke+zi%27o+le+barda+tcadu&bl One of my favorite texts in Lojban is la grutrduriani (Durian fruit). For some reason it's not even on that Texts in Lojban page! I guess maybe I'll add it. It's a simple diary; lots of entries about watching people play football in the park. I've always found it very simple & relaxing to read: http://vixcafe.googlepages.com/grutrduriani.html Thank you kindly for your effort. > je'e My response the the puzzle text you posed: > .io .i'o .ui .i'e do cilre zo'e gi'e sarji vau la .lojban. > "With respect, appreciation, delight and approval you learn and support > lojban." > yes, that's what i meant :) To the best of my beginner's understanding the denizens of selma'o UI may be > added to text more or less freely and are not bound by the otherwise strict > grammar. As for interpretation this seems a little ambiguous (and therefore > probably not the case). I've lumped them all into one nebulous glob of > attitudinal meaning. > Well, it's like this. They aren't bound by the grammar in the sense that there isn't really any illegal position for a free modifier like a UI. You can just stick it after any word in any sentence & you're good. It is bound by the grammar very strictly in that the meaning changes subtly depending on where exactly you put it! The free modifier sticks to the thing immediately to its left, and affects that. So for instance: ".ui mi citka lo xunre badna" -- (happy!) Me eat a red banana. I'm eating a banana, and I'm happy about the whole affair. "mi .ui citka lo xunre badna" -- Me (happy!) eat a red banana. Maybe I'm happy that it's me eating it, and not you. "mi citka .ui lo xunre badna" -- Me eat (happy!) a red banana. I could be happy I'm *eating* it, as opposed to sticking it in my ear. "mi citka lo .ui xunre badna" -- Me eat a (happy!) red banana. I'm happy that it's the red banana that I'm eating. "mi citka lo xunre .ui badna" -- Me eat a red (happy!) banana. I'm eating a banana and I'm happy that it's a *red* banana. "mi citka lo xunre badna .ui" -- Me eat a red banana (happy!). I'm eating something red and I'm happy that it's a banana. "mi citka lo xunre badna vau .ui" -- Me eat a red banana! (happy!) By putting in the explicit "vau", we can attach the ".ui" to the whole sentence at the end, so this last one is very similar to the first. So as you can see, you're not constrained by the grammar at all as to where you can *put* the UI, but you're constrained exactly by the grammar as to what it *means* in each position. It's very [.ui] expressive. mu'o mi'e se ckiku ------=_Part_24790_23815138.1217873804490 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 8/4/08, peter hering <pjhering@gmail.com> wrote:

 I appreciate it and jbofi'e digests it without complaint, but what would Poe think? 


Here's a looser attempt of my own:


pu zu so'i lo nanca be li so'i
lo gugde noi jibni lo xamsi
cu se xabju lo slabu la'a nixli 
noi zo .anabeLIS. cmene ke'a mi
.i ny jmive co pensi lo po'o za'i 
ny prami gi'e se prami vau ro'u mi


Esperanto has over the years produced its own literature. 


Indeed, they do have a head start.  Since they started with all of the vocabulary of Europe, a double head start.  But it'll be the tortoise and the hare...
 

Does lojban have its great authors and poets?


and speaking of the tortoise and the hare, :)
one of the great poets of Lojban's history is Nitcion,
who's greek & one of whose efforts is some translations of Aesop:
http://www.lojban.org/files/texts/aesop

There's a bunch of texts up at
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=Texts+In+Lojban

There's a lot of stuff there to dig through!  Hmm I wonder what all that would look like bound up into a nice hardcover..

One author who's working now is la gejyspa, who just completed a wonderful translation of Esther (which is too hard for me, so I wouldn't recommend it to you!), and who just pointed out to me an older translation of his, "Terry the Tiger Visits the Big City", which would be a good read for ninpre:
http://www.lojban.org/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=la+teris.+po%27u+lo+tirxu+cu+vitke+zi%27o+le+barda+tcadu&bl

One of my favorite texts in Lojban is la grutrduriani (Durian fruit).  For some reason it's not even on that Texts in Lojban page!  I guess maybe I'll add it.  It's a simple diary; lots of entries about watching people play football in the park.  I've always found it very simple & relaxing to read:
http://vixcafe.googlepages.com/grutrduriani.html
 

Thank you kindly for your effort.

je'e

My response the the puzzle text you posed:
.io .i'o .ui .i'e do cilre zo'e gi'e sarji vau la .lojban.
"With respect, appreciation, delight and approval you learn and support lojban."

yes, that's what i meant :)

 

To the best of my beginner's understanding the denizens of selma'o UI may be added to text more or less freely and are not bound by the otherwise strict grammar.  As for interpretation this seems a little ambiguous (and therefore probably not the case).  I've lumped them all into one nebulous glob of attitudinal meaning.

Well, it's like this.  They aren't bound by the grammar in the sense that there isn't really any illegal position for a free modifier like a UI.  You can just stick it after any word in any sentence & you're good.  It is bound by the grammar very strictly in that the meaning changes subtly depending on where exactly you put it!  The free modifier sticks to the thing immediately to its left, and affects that.  So for instance:
 
".ui mi citka lo xunre badna" -- (happy!) Me eat a red banana.  I'm eating a banana, and I'm happy about the whole affair.
"mi .ui citka lo xunre badna" -- Me (happy!) eat a red banana.  Maybe I'm happy that it's me eating it, and not you.
"mi citka .ui lo xunre badna" -- Me eat (happy!) a red banana.  I could be happy I'm *eating* it, as opposed to sticking it in my ear.
"mi citka lo .ui xunre badna" -- Me eat a (happy!) red banana.  I'm happy that it's the red banana that I'm eating.
"mi citka lo xunre .ui badna" -- Me eat a red (happy!) banana.  I'm eating a banana and I'm happy that it's a *red* banana. 
"mi citka lo xunre badna .ui" -- Me eat a red banana (happy!).  I'm eating something red and I'm happy that it's a banana.
"mi citka lo xunre badna vau .ui" -- Me eat a red banana! (happy!)  By putting in the explicit "vau", we can attach the ".ui" to the whole sentence at the end, so this last one is very similar to the first.

So as you can see, you're not constrained by the grammar at all as to where you can *put* the UI, but you're constrained exactly by the grammar as to what it *means* in each position.  It's very [.ui] expressive.

mu'o mi'e se ckiku

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