From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Aug 05 09:55:42 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:55:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KQPp0-0000mm-BX for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:55:42 -0700 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.173]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KQPow-0000mf-Cl for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:55:42 -0700 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so2515438wfg.25 for ; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:55:37 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=ZOUK1e1YF63jReGNXYTRfFg9EjSrbkk/3/unTb6/Ka4=; b=fDRpTrY6VnBLwZNhd6UGagoX9hEqIOzYGrLLe5/gfM6HfV4VnqGyigXRF0/KWj68Nn g4o34j2B9tukIkBkNYj39BmcREg47fLa17qeLgVWlK4/rFDwn2EgTFOTb9xy72lTs2AN Lw3ybSS7oQ2eECB8XAbvFWqMe6dLZPVIhl7yc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=H8QwsFyCVFbXZQqXAMPOyn4Z/ym8qWTGfqi9WZVb8lA63kah1pxJN7uZ7gDqWzCTCg yzYPcqZZ17ITSWvlIiTPu6XqJuVKLfL2wU3YLhZW2AjKMNiuhi27NS91/5iW4DnlpO/N hn1SjNLrJFEplI4nbC7RFeTSsWi+nkiLnbMyk= Received: by 10.142.177.7 with SMTP id z7mr5547667wfe.88.1217955337001; Tue, 05 Aug 2008 09:55:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.51.12 with HTTP; Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:55:36 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 12:55:36 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: pe'u e'osai In-Reply-To: <337112.86176.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_3884_30732040.1217955337005" References: <337112.86176.qm@web88007.mail.re2.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 787 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_3884_30732040.1217955337005 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 8/5/08, A. PIEKARSKI wrote: > > Can anybody tell me if there is there any difference, no matter how subtle, > between {pe'u) and {e'osai}? When would one use one or the other? > Likewise (ki'e) and {i'o}. The first main difference I can point out to you is both grammatical and semantic, which is that {pe'u} and {ki'e} are in selma'o (se cmavo) COI. That means that they not only change the mood of the sentence, but also *address* it, usually to someone present. So for instance: "mi surla .i'o" -- I relax, which I appreciate and am grateful for. "mi surla ki'e" -- I relax-- thanks [someone, who's probably present, or is otherwise addressable]! Another difference is how quickly & deeply the speaking community has adopted those various words. They've all come and gone in popularity over time, but I would say that on the whole {ki'e} is much more popular than {.i'o} (though {.i'o} has gained a bit of attention recently), and {.e'o} is much more popular than {pe'u} (though {pe'u} has gained a bit of attention recently). One important historical difference is that {.e'o} is used in the famous saying ".e'o sai ko sarji la .lojban." (which probably causes {.e'o} to take a {sai} more often than other UIs..) There's a relationship in fact between all three of {pe'u}, {.e'o}, and {ko}. {pe'u} addresses someone, putting them into the sentence as the addressee, and is clearly asking them for something. Definitely a sense of {ga'i nai}, at least for me. {.e'o} changes the mood of the statement, giving everything about it a requestiness. It's kind of near {.a'o} in my mind-- {.a'o} you hope the bridi will happen, {.e'o} you hope that someone will help make it happen. {ko} actually puts the listener into the bridi, and clarifies the others-- it shows exactly what the request/command/desire is. (Otherwise you're guessing, and {gau ko} is usually the right guess.) You didn't ask, but {.e'u} differs from {.e'o} to my mind in that the request is more for the benefit of the listener than the speaker. {.e'u} is most often used with {do} instead of {ko}, in my experience. I would say even that {ko} has a bit of an implication of {.e'o} in it-- {ko} means not just "this is what I think you should/will/ought/must do", but "this is what I am requesting/ordering/asking for you to do." I don't really understand {.e'i}, can someone talk more about that? Is it like "must", "have to"? mu'o mi'e se ckiku ------=_Part_3884_30732040.1217955337005 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline

On 8/5/08, A. PIEKARSKI <totus@rogers.com> wrote:
Can anybody tell me if there is there any difference, no matter how subtle,
between {pe'u) and {e'osai}?  When would one use one or the other?
Likewise (ki'e) and {i'o}.


The first main difference I can point out to you is both grammatical and semantic, which is that {pe'u} and {ki'e} are in selma'o (se cmavo) COI.  That means that they not only change the mood of the sentence, but also *address* it, usually to someone present.  So for instance: 

"mi surla .i'o" -- I relax, which I appreciate and am grateful for. 
"mi surla ki'e" -- I relax-- thanks [someone, who's probably present, or is otherwise addressable]! 

Another difference is how quickly & deeply the speaking community has adopted those various words.  They've all come and gone in popularity over time, but I would say that on the whole {ki'e} is much more popular than {.i'o} (though {.i'o} has gained a bit of attention recently), and {.e'o} is much more popular than {pe'u} (though {pe'u} has gained a bit of attention recently).

One important historical difference is that {.e'o} is used in the famous saying ".e'o sai ko sarji la .lojban." (which probably causes {.e'o} to take a {sai} more often than other UIs..)

There's a relationship in fact between all three of {pe'u}, {.e'o}, and {ko}.  {pe'u} addresses someone, putting them into the sentence as the addressee, and is clearly asking them for something.  Definitely a sense of {ga'i nai}, at least for me.  {.e'o} changes the mood of the statement, giving everything about it a requestiness.  It's kind of near {.a'o} in my mind-- {.a'o} you hope the bridi will happen, {.e'o} you hope that someone will help make it happen.  {ko} actually puts the listener into the bridi, and clarifies the others-- it shows exactly what the request/command/desire is.  (Otherwise you're guessing, and {gau ko} is usually the right guess.)

You didn't ask, but {.e'u} differs from {.e'o} to my mind in that the request is more for the benefit of the listener than the speaker.  {.e'u} is most often used with {do} instead of {ko}, in my experience.  I would say even that {ko} has a bit of an implication of {.e'o} in it-- {ko} means not just "this is what I think you should/will/ought/must do", but "this is what I am requesting/ordering/asking for you to do."

I don't really understand {.e'i}, can someone talk more about that?  Is it like "must", "have to"?

mu'o mi'e se ckiku
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