From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Aug 13 13:36:33 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:36:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KTN54-0001iB-VC for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:36:32 -0700 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.175]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1KTN4z-0001hT-OU for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:36:30 -0700 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 23so129058wfg.25 for ; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:36:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=pit46d2NakIlS2y8gqUQ0FAwhHARUnxSWxs4PxRdbOk=; b=gMPtTKAtuX4WQLjqaO/VmdecQioALsaKpfOOWhaA0wJA+9kXiAHr3zQqEWUM8KWfmK Q0oYxYb9+mIzfAoWE5jo2qLG3q2dMcM/XsOvItYA2RwmQQ7nqrlGkaOlp3exm+q0x9yg ImmjuOfX2z73bEJAC1mJRDWCLm4MS6Lez9I70= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=OBX5tTqhnlDojFiXPLmLV1wil+HiBiw/x82NsDA/0SV3453z3oAy6Sf3yO+VQ9jpLD PEilpa5HFP/vx3aLPggg7NWx4z4rgEEFJJ6+vI2XIF0/z/M4NcoBtwNwvn4/ZfmeG2aM zrDWoAhXpE8WX8sDSQiqvLox5cyYP8CdUf6Vo= Received: by 10.142.192.11 with SMTP id p11mr112447wff.276.1218659782144; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.147.16 with HTTP; Wed, 13 Aug 2008 13:36:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 16:36:22 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: go'i / ri In-Reply-To: <925d17560808131212m2759f2cam5673d0934f7d4604@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_68514_25143003.1218659782145" References: <44788.74123.qm@web30408.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <925d17560808131212m2759f2cam5673d0934f7d4604@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 822 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_68514_25143003.1218659782145 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On 8/13/08, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > > On 8/13/08, Brett Williams wrote: > > a very good exposition of "ri" and "go'i". ki'e za'e si'asku A minor point though: > > > > "ri" is a pro-sumti. Pro-sumti have some interesting characteristics: > [...] > > > - They terminate selbri. > > Except when they don't ;) e.g. "broda be ri" or "me ri". > Yes that could be misleading, sorry. Here's another way of getting at what I was trying to say: A lot of the words in Lojban, like all of the brivla (AKA all of the words that mean muc= h of anything), come pre-wetted with this weird invisible tanru glue. They stick to each other. They stick to many cmavo. They'll stick to most anything. It's useful because you don't have to say a bunch of structure words *all* the time to make a sentence in Lojban come together: mostly you just throw it up together & it sticks together all on its own. But if that's mostly all you're working with, it can get to be a mess: You need to come through chopping and hacking with "ku"s and "cu"s just to keep things from all forming into one indistinct blob. Pro-sumti, comparitively, are much less sticky. They have a refreshingly solid texture, amidst the tanru-sticky brivla and the taffy-pulling LEs and BEs. When you say a pro-sumti, either you are in a context such as "be", "me", a BAI, the secret invisible place after "lo", etc, where you need a sumti, in which case, bam, no fooling around, you got it, or if there's no context or tag then you put that sumti into the next available slot in the open bridi, bam, just like that. Brivla have an inherent open-end to them, a question: Is this selbri finished yet, making this the tertau and defining the structure of the bridi, or are we going to continue to another brivla (or selbri cmavo), reducing what's already been said to a seltau? Gadri and BEs and BAIs and NUs and most other constructions are also about opening up questions, making space for a reference or description. Pro-sumti are i= n the business of answering questions, not asking them. They terminate implicitly simply by tying up a loose end completely; in answering their own question (what's in the "fe" place, mu'a) they also answer other questions (yes, that really is the tertau, mu'a). A healthy balance of pro-sumti keeps one's sentences fresh & healthy, pe'i. "ku" and "cu" are bland blank words, which is fine when bland & blank is what you're aiming for at the moment. (It's simple to understand, for instance!) When you want a rich dense sentence, I think it's best to mostly arrange it so your "cu"s (and usually "kei"s too) are replaced with tenses, and your "ku"s are replaced with pro-sumti (and other such sneaky arrangements). mu'o mi'e se ckiku ------=_Part_68514_25143003.1218659782145 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On 8/13/08, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jj= llambias@gmail.com> wrote:
On 8/13/08, Brett Williams <mung= ojelly@gmail.com> wrote:

a very good exposition of "ri&= quot; and "go'i".


ki'e za&#= 39;e si'asku
 

A minor point though:


>  "ri" is a pro-= sumti.  Pro-sumti have some interesting characteristics:
[...= ]

> - They terminate selbri.

Except when they don't ;= ) e.g. "broda be ri" or "me ri".


Yes that could be misleading, sorry.

Her= e's another way of getting at what I was trying to say: A lot of the w= ords in Lojban, like all of the brivla (AKA all of the words that mean much= of anything), come pre-wetted with this weird invisible tanru glue.  = They stick to each other.  They stick to many cmavo.  They'll= stick to most anything.  It's useful because you&n= bsp;don't have to say a bunch of structure words *all* the time to make= a sentence in Lojban come together: mostly you just throw it up together &= amp; it sticks together all on its own.  But if that's mostly all = you're working with, it can get to be a mess: You need to come through = chopping and hacking with "ku"s and "cu"s just to keep = things from all forming into one indistinct blob.

Pro-sumti, comparitively, are much less sticky.  They have a refre= shingly solid texture, amidst the tanru-sticky brivla and the taffy-pulling= LEs and BEs.  When you say a pro-sumti, either you are in a cont= ext such as "be", "me", a BAI, the secret invisible pla= ce after "lo", etc, where you need a sumti, in which case, bam, n= o fooling around, you got it, or if there's no context or tag then you = put that sumti into the next available slot in the open bridi, bam, just li= ke that.

Brivla have an inherent open-end to them, a question: Is this = ;selbri finished yet, making this the tertau&= nbsp;and defining the structure of the bridi, or&n= bsp;are we going to continue to another = brivla (or selbri cmavo), reducing what's already = been said to a seltau?  Gadri and BEs and BAI= s and NUs and most other constructions are&nb= sp;also about opening up questions, making space&n= bsp;for a reference or description.  Pro-sumt= i are in the business of answering questions,=  not asking them.  They terminate implic= itly simply by tying up a loose end comp= letely; in answering their own question (what'= s in the "fe" place, mu'a) they also=  answer other questions (yes, that really is = the tertau, mu'a). 

A healthy balance of pro-sumti keeps one's sentences fresh & he= althy, pe'i.  "ku" and "cu" are bland blank wo= rds, which is fine when bland & blank is what you're aiming for at= the moment.  (It's simple to understand, = ;for instance!)  When you want a rich dense sentence, I think it&= #39;s best to mostly arrange it so your "cu"s (and usually &= quot;kei"s too) are replaced with tenses, and your "ku"s are= replaced with pro-sumti (and other such sneaky arrangements).

mu'o mi'e se ckiku

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