From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Sep 22 12:20:45 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:20:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Khqxh-0003HV-0t for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:20:45 -0700 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.249]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Khqxc-0003Gl-R4 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:20:44 -0700 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so1617851rvf.46 for ; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:20:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=cXwkWB5JeEZCCVDSxgvs7uyy5wzaMPRG7VUT1SQMIu4=; b=SdTTT05zL1ahiiF6MY7XkrOS1WrwvzBGohtZlwPAtGatyZa6YAECfr6BdDz1TCVY/M ih5KzmCjReMZaTMj97loH/4sLl0dznAUuHgD5+9SOUpqWc5jYy3OBCsnxLvaXwaE4hUc wNHFfWJJPTQzfWUS1F8jZAjU/uSSqoQOjSigk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=AqW4J/MtvZFW79jUzmMZn5Dp4zmXKYjIgavSGet1C7MY665VgCpfSY41zUKqcZlQYf YaYCqjBf3MUpwB3jYx/oUy4ATIhsRyFqqcEoFEm5s21cLojZGzyxTDN85gD5iD2UBnSj yTaK6+x9+lOZ5FVzbS/UUMvYc36vr8xqQVsTw= Received: by 10.141.193.1 with SMTP id v1mr2216693rvp.73.1222111239845; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.141.96.7 with HTTP; Mon, 22 Sep 2008 12:20:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 22 Sep 2008 15:20:39 -0400 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: PLace structure vs. cmavo? In-Reply-To: <66950.22571.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_60998_6096993.1222111239835" References: <66950.22571.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 867 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_60998_6096993.1222111239835 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline On 9/20/08, Tom Gysel wrote: > > Do you (or anyone else) know if there is a way of classifying gismu, as in: > these types of gismu have this kind of place structure, and this sort has > this structure... ? To memorize them with much more ease? > There hasn't been much success at organizing them! The way that I organize them in my own mind is basically a few categories based on complexity: 1. Simple ones. Ones with only one place, such as the colors, or with a conventional second place like all of the animals and plants (the x2 is always the species). There are a lot of these, which should be reassuring! "ninmu" for instance just means "x1 is a woman", no place structure to worry about. 2. Two place gismu describing an action. These are somewhat similar structurally to English verbs. Many of them are easy to remember because they have the same places as equivalent English verbs, for instance "prami" is "x1 loves x2", which is pretty much the same place structure as the verb "love", and "citka" is "x1 eats x2", which is similar to the verb "eat". 3. Gismu with weird extra places. For instance "palku", pants, isn't just "x1 is a pair of pants", but has an x2 place for the material of the pants, and "palci", evil, isn't just "x1 is evil", but has an x2 place for the standard by which the x1 is evil. The trick with gismu like this is to ignore the later places! Everyone uses "palci" all the time these days, and probably at least half of those people have never put any thought into its x2 place, as it doesn't come up. So don't feel like you "don't know" a gismu if you don't know it to the end of its places; if you know that "palku" means pants, you're doing fine (and if you also knew that "mapni" means cotton, you'd probably guess what "lo palku be lo mapni" means, anyway). 4. Big gismu. Four and five placers. These are the intimidating ones that inspire a posting here once every couple of months saying that Lojban's place structure system is madness. :) But notice that they're not all of the gismu or even the bulk of them. I think of the few 4/5 place gismu that I'm fully comfortable with as a small collection of unusually powerful swiss-army-like tools. The first one that I learned well was "klama" (which I've recently deepened my connection to by getting friendly with the BAI "ka'a"). Then I picked up "cusku", and "fanva". I have a few more now but those are still the large ones that pop effortlessly to mind. They're more of an occasional treat than the meat-and-potatoes of gismu! They're certainly not the main obstacle in learning to deal with place structures. So that's sort of the categorization I have for them myself. Plus there's a lot of specific things, like knowing that living things have a species in the x2 or that a materials place is common for objects, etc. As far as tips for memorizing gismu places, this is my tip: Please don't! Or at least don't judge your Lojban progress on whether you've successfully memorized deep gismu places. In my experience a much more common and easier way to actually learn the places of a gismu is one place at a time, in the process of learning & speaking. For instance, I didn't ever learn the gismu "cfipu" by memorizing all three places at once, and I'm sure that would have been a bit intimidating. I remember learning the first place, a confusing situation, as if the gismu were just "x1 is a confusing situation". Then I learned the second place, the person who's confused, and I started to use "cfipu" as if it just meant "x1 is a situation which is confusing to x2". (I also remember taking a while getting comfortable with different arrangements of the first two places, such as "mi se cfipu", I'm confused.) Finally I picked up the third place, the quality of the situation which is confusing, and now I'm comfortable with the whole real structure, "x1 is a situation which confuses x2 because of its property of being x3". I've only been to that point for a few months, though, and "cfipu" was serving me well in partial form for years! So that's my main advice to gismu learners: Sure it's intimidating to learn a five-place gismu, or even a three-place gismu, but you're not really expected to learn all the places of all the gismu at once, you know? If you're learning "klama", don't worry about memorizing the 3rd 4th 5th places, start by being comfortable with "x1 goes to destination x2" and work your way up from there. mu'o mi'e se ckiku ------=_Part_60998_6096993.1222111239835 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline

On 9/20/08, Tom Gysel <to_mu1975@= yahoo.com> wrote:
Do you = (or anyone else) know if there is a way of classifying gismu, as in: these = types of gismu have this kind of place structure, and this sort has this st= ructure... ? To memorize them with much more ease?

There hasn't been much= success at organizing them!  The way that I organize them in my own m= ind is basically a few categories based on complexity:
 
1. Sim= ple ones.  Ones with only one place, such as the colors, or with a con= ventional second place like all of the animals and plants (the x2 is always= the species).  There are a lot of these, which should be reassuring! =  "ninmu" for instance just means "x1 is a woman", = no place structure to worry about.
 
2. Two place gismu describing an action.  These a= re somewhat similar structurally to English verbs.  Many of them are e= asy to remember because they have the same places as equivalent English ver= bs, for instance "prami" is "x1 loves x2", which is pre= tty much the same place structure as the verb "love", and "c= itka" is "x1 eats x2", which is similar to the verb "ea= t".
 
3. Gismu with weird extra places.  For instance "palku&= quot;, pants, isn't just "x1 is a pair of pants", but has an = x2 place for the material of the pants, and "palci", evil, isn= 9;t just "x1 is evil", but has an x2 place for the standard by wh= ich the x1 is evil.  The trick with gismu like this is to ignore the l= ater places!  Everyone uses "palci" all the time these days,= and probably at least half of those people have never put any thought into= its x2 place, as it doesn't come up.  So don't feel like you = "don't know" a gismu if you don't know it to the end of i= ts places; if you know that "palku" means pants, you're doing= fine (and if you also knew that "mapni" = ;means cotton, you'd probably guess what "lo palku be lo mapn= i" means, anyway).
 
4. Big gismu.  Four and five placers.  These are the in= timidating ones that inspire a posting here once every couple of months say= ing that Lojban's place structure system is madness. :)  But notic= e that they're not all of the gismu or even&nb= sp;the bulk of them.  I think of the few= 4/5 place gismu that I'm fully comfortable with as a sm= all collection of unusually powerful swiss-army-like tools.  = ;The first one that I learned well was "klama= " (which I've recently deepened my connection to by=  getting friendly with the BAI "ka'a").&n= bsp; Then I picked up "cusku", and "fanv= a".  I have a few more now but those are stil= l the large ones that pop effortlessly to mind. &n= bsp;They're more of an occasional treat t= han the meat-and-potatoes of gismu!  They're c= ertainly not the main obstacle in learning to&nbs= p;deal with place structures.
 
So that's sort of the categorization I have for them myself. =  Plus there's a lot of specific things, like knowing that living t= hings have a species in the x2 or that a materials place is common for obje= cts, etc.
 
As far as tips for memorizing gismu places, this is my tip: Pleas= e don't!  Or at least don't judge your Lojban progress on whet= her you've successfully memorized deep gismu places.  In my experi= ence a much more common and easier way to actually learn the places of a gi= smu is one place at a time, in the process of learning & speaking.

For instance, I didn't ever learn the gism= u "cfipu" by memorizing all three places at&= nbsp;once, and I'm sure that would have been&n= bsp;a bit intimidating.  I remember learning = the first place, a confusing situation, as&nb= sp;if the gismu were just "x1 is a confusing&= nbsp;situation".  Then I learned the second&n= bsp;place, the person who's confused, and I&nb= sp;started to use "cfipu" as if it just&= nbsp;meant "x1 is a situation which is c= onfusing to x2".  (I also remember takin= g a while getting comfortable with different arrangemen= ts of the first two places, such as "mi se cfipu&q= uot;, I'm confused.)  Finally I picked up = ;the third place, the quality of the situation&nbs= p;which is confusing, and now I'm comfortable with = the whole real structure, "x1 is a situa= tion which confuses x2 because of its propert= y of being x3".  I've only been to that point for a few = months, though, and "cfipu" was serving me well in partial form f= or years!
 
So that's my main advice to gismu learners: Sure it's in= timidating to learn a five-place gismu, or even a three-place gismu, but yo= u're not really expected to learn all the places of all the gismu at on= ce, you know?  If you're learning "klama", don't wor= ry about memorizing the 3rd 4th 5th places, start by being comfortable with= "x1 goes to destination x2" and work your way up from there.  
mu'o mi'e se ckiku

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