From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Nov 12 03:59:40 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:59:40 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0ENo-0000FZ-Ms for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:59:40 -0800 Received: from rn-out-0910.google.com ([64.233.170.186]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0ENl-0000FM-EH for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:59:40 -0800 Received: by rn-out-0910.google.com with SMTP id k40so305614rnd.0 for ; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:59:36 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=vj7DOWDp31i2a428EEpmca4TcmhMH+9FRpJ1EeYtoAw=; b=AJhte/8W1NYUw/+tiH2TV6YsPLIDrZkaxch1UIAPkUNrTtLITugcpJs8PpcdWFOEJF lSLSL3iC++skbtQNTHLNYyhHLUyDPoK4CnWQqit+atynaPbA6gimRlAluLr7B8Ux8/Zq +l9pXnFz3sDUIROkLDNcuPY6vFiTdzrif7QEA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=vM1fKV+SZmqinWhrP+ddkVLsq1i94DU9Tgyz8aAmnfPinl8YLpBJdA3mggOhH7RDk6 P0Uy+PIc+iWRSaIHgEIHWI2lw6NatqXq9XiGgnPUhp3c/yo+M7j0a34ZdMjvtIf9S+U0 LKOdKt/lD2bdoPKkwHkgAYsIl6jq4UVQGYspo= Received: by 10.151.51.18 with SMTP id d18mr13793209ybk.236.1226491175895; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:59:35 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.151.9.10 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Nov 2008 03:59:35 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <71550650811120359h58c9d0bet534e81c46f07fa01@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 12 Nov 2008 13:59:35 +0200 From: "Yoav Nir" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: A priest, a rabbi and an Indian chief walk into a bar... In-Reply-To: <925d17560811111631s588c211ds6a248e0a6b63cd69@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_5489_11716312.1226491175894" References: <71550650811111530v3febc4a1t30b7f69427cdbde1@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560811111631s588c211ds6a248e0a6b63cd69@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1012 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: yoav.nir@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_5489_11716312.1226491175894 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 2:31 AM, Jorge Llamb=EDas wro= te: > On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Yoav Nir wrote: > > I searched jbovlaste and could not find an Indian Chief, or even an > American > > Indian or native american. I could make up a big tanru with > > leader+aboriginal+american or even condense it into a lujvo, but then I= 'd > > get something like ralmerliryraixa'u - > > leader+American+(early+superlative+dwell). Surely there's something > better. > > lo .indio ralju? "Indio" is PC enough? OK. > I woudn't restrict it to merko indians though. > > > Priest has a different word in every natural language, so I guess it > needs > > its own word in lojban. But what xisjdaca'i? Christian religious leader= ? > How > > did we get from a 5 letter word in English to this? > > "Priest" can be more general than Chrstian priest. I would go with a > tanru: lo xriso jdaca'i. In this context, we're talking about a Christian cleric, rather than a person who performs religious rites in any religion, or a Christian monk. > > > > For Rabbi, every language uses a variation of the Hebrew original. The > > original is "rav" meaning master or teacher, but in most languages, eve= n > > sometimes in Hebrew, people use a variation on "rabi" meaning "my rav" > (very > > much like sensei in Japanese). So is it possible to just use rabi as a > > class-4 fu'ivla? Maybe only a class-3 fu'ivla. But what gismu should I > add > > to "rabi"? It is a job, so maybe gunkrabi? But a rabbi is also a > teacher, > > so maybe ctucrabi? > > gunkrabi and ctucrabi are both lujvo: gun-krabi, ctu-crabi, even > though krabi and crabi are not actual gismu they are of gismu form. > The type-3 fuhivla always require an r-hyphen (which in this case > becomes an n-hyphen): gunknrabi and ctucnrabi. Or, if you use the gun- > rafsi, you need the l-hyphen: gunlrabi. Or you could use lo xebro > jdaca'i. > I don't like xebro jdaca'i because it's rabi in all natural languages, and = I believe that when the word is similar in most natural languages (like spaghetti or curry) it should be imported as a fu'ivla. No reason for lojba= n to be the single language where a rabbi is not called a rabi. Besides, if the temple is ever rebuilt (or the bible is translated), "xebro jdaca'i" won't carry the difference between "rabi" and "ko'en" both or which could b= e a Jewish authority. Not to mention going into the finer distinctions of cofet, sofer, tana, amora, and all the other kinds of rabbis. Unfortunately, I understand that I can't use "rabi" as a type-4 fu'ivla because it falls apart "the think we mentioned before + 8". I could do a .g= y rabi .gy (or is it .xy rabi .xy?) Shouldn't there be a single way to say things like this. It looks like I need to invent a word whenever I write even a simple sentence. ------=_Part_5489_11716312.1226491175894 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline
On Wed, Nov 12, 2008 at 2:31 AM= , Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Yoav Nir <yoav.nir@gmail.com> wrote:
> I searched jbovlaste and could not find an Indian Chief, or even an Am= erican
> Indian or native american. I could make up a big tanru with
> leader+aboriginal+american or even condense it into a lujvo, but then = I'd
> get something like ralmerliryraixa'u -
> leader+American+(early+superlative+dwell).  Surely there's so= mething better.

lo .indio ralju?

"Indio" is= PC enough?  OK. 


I woudn't restrict it to merko indians though.

> Priest has a different word in every natural language, so I guess it n= eeds
> its own word in lojban. But what xisjdaca'i? Christian religious l= eader? How
> did we get from a 5 letter word in English to this?

"Priest" can be more general than Chrstian priest. I would = go with a
tanru: lo xriso jdaca'i.

In this contex= t, we're talking about a Christian cleric, rather than a person who per= forms religious rites in any religion, or a Christian monk. 


> For Rabbi, every language uses a variation of the Hebrew original. The=
> original is "rav" meaning master or teacher, but in most lan= guages, even
> sometimes in Hebrew, people use a variation on "rabi" meanin= g "my rav" (very
> much like sensei in Japanese). So is it possible to just use rabi as a=
> class-4 fu'ivla? Maybe only a class-3 fu'ivla. But what gismu = should I add
> to "rabi"? It is a job, so maybe gunkrabi?  But a rabbi= is also a teacher,
> so maybe ctucrabi?

gunkrabi and ctucrabi are both lujvo: gun-krabi, ctu-crabi, even
though krabi and crabi are not actual gismu they are of gismu form.
The type-3 fuhivla always require an r-hyphen (which in this case
becomes an n-hyphen): gunknrabi and ctucnrabi. Or, if you use the gun-
rafsi, you need the l-hyphen: gunlrabi. Or you could use lo xebro
jdaca'i.

I don't like xebro jdaca= 9;i because it's rabi in all natural languages, and I believe that when= the word is similar in most natural languages (like spaghetti or curry) it= should be imported as a fu'ivla. No reason for lojban to be the single= language where a rabbi is not called a rabi. Besides, if the temple is eve= r rebuilt (or the bible is translated), "xebro jdaca'i" won&#= 39;t carry the difference between "rabi" and "ko'en"= ; both or which could be a Jewish authority. Not to mention going into the = finer distinctions of cofet, sofer, tana, amora, and all the other kinds of= rabbis.

Unfortunately, I understand that I can't use "= rabi" as a type-4 fu'ivla because it falls apart "the think w= e mentioned before + 8". I could do a .gy rabi .gy (or is it .xy rabi = .xy?)

Shouldn't there be a single way to say things like = this. It looks like I need to invent a word whenever I write even a simple = sentence.
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