From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Nov 13 12:36:17 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:36:18 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0ivJ-0007YU-Ow for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:36:17 -0800 Received: from col0-omc4-s18.col0.hotmail.com ([65.55.34.220]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0ivG-0007Y7-MJ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:36:17 -0800 Received: from COL102-W48 ([65.55.34.201]) by col0-omc4-s18.col0.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(6.0.3790.3959); Thu, 13 Nov 2008 12:36:07 -0800 Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_3221c744-7f21-45ac-94c3-4f5d927ad7f6_" X-Originating-IP: [64.207.34.250] From: M CHILDS To: Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la/le Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 20:36:07 +0000 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <702226df0811120417j1527af0cxef2b07c159c725f1@mail.gmail.com> References: <71550650811111530v3febc4a1t30b7f69427cdbde1@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560811111631s588c211ds6a248e0a6b63cd69@mail.gmail.com> <200811112253.01102.phma@phma.optus.nu> <702226df0811120417j1527af0cxef2b07c159c725f1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 13 Nov 2008 20:36:07.0854 (UTC) FILETIME=[74E5E4E0:01C945CF] X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1033 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: m_chi919@msn.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --_3221c744-7f21-45ac-94c3-4f5d927ad7f6_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was a very helpful explanation Date: Thu=2C 13 Nov 2008 06:17:51 +1800 From: eyeonus@gmail.com To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la/le On Wed=2C Nov 12=2C 2008 at 10:44 PM=2C M CHILDS wrote: I'm still having trouble understanding la and le... so for instance ninmu is a selbri and le would be a sumti le ninmu and the structure of ninmu is x1 is a woman so for the distinction between THE and A? and why is someone's name x1 =3D la? and why are le and la necessary if they are place holders for the object=2C= when the selbri describes that object? Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts you to suspicious emai= l. Sign up today. Anything which can conceivably occupy the x1 of a gismu can be {le gismu}. = {cribe}=2C by itself=2C for example=2C is an observative=2C as in "Bear!"= =2C just as {fagri} is "Fire!". Using a gismu in this way is what's called = an observative. (As a side note=2C {cribe} actually means {zo'e cribe zo'e}= : "something is a bear of species something"=2C and is a brivla.) {le cribe} means "the bear"=2C that is=2C a particular bear that you have i= n mind=2C whether it be the stuffed bear you had as a kid=2C or the bear th= at ate your porridge. This is different from {cribe} in that you are indica= ting one particular bear. It can be anything that you=2C the speaker=2C wou= ld call a bear=2C whether it be an actual bear or not. {la cribe} means "Bear"=2C as in something which is named Bear=2C whether t= hat be Frank Bear=2C the author=2C a large dog named Bear (which=2C I belie= ve=2C one of us has)=2C or even a plane named Bear. This is different from = both {cribe} and {le cribe} in that you are indicating something which may = not have any resemblance to a bear=2C but for whatever reason bears the nam= e. (Ugh=2C a pun....) There is also {lo cribe}=2C which means "a bear"=2C that is=2C anything whi= ch could conceivably be a bear. In this case=2C you are not indicating anyt= hing in particular=2C but a general class. In this case=2C your teddy bear = could not (arguably) be {lo cribe}=2C Frank Bear certainly would not=2C but= the black bears of the Americas and the one that ate your porridge are all= {lo cribe}. {la}=2C {le}=2C and {lo} are what are known as articles: they alert the lis= tener that that which follows is a referrent=2C and also perform the task o= f converting a gismu into a sumti. Take=2C for instance=2C the two sentences: ninmu clite woman-ish type-of being polite (A feminine kind of politeness?) x1 is a woman-ish type-of being polite in matter x2 according to custom x3 le ninmu cu clite the woman is polite the woman is polite in matter x2 according to custom x3 In the first sentence=2C ninmu combines with clite in what is called a tanr= u=2C which is simlar to a metaphor or compound word=2C whereas in the secon= d the article {le} turns ninmu into a sumti whitch fills in the x1 of {clit= e}. I hope I'm not confusing anyone.... --=20 mu'o mi'e .topy'at. .i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. http://windowslive.com/Explore/Hotmail?ocid=3DTXT_TAGLM_WL_hotmail_acq_fast= er_112008= --_3221c744-7f21-45ac-94c3-4f5d927ad7f6_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This was a very helpful explanation



= Date: Thu=2C 13 Nov 2008 06:17:51 +1800
From: eyeonus@gmail.com
To: l= ojban-beginners@lojban.org
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la/le

=

On Wed=2C Nov 12=2C 2008 at 10:44 PM= =2C M CHILDS <=3Bm_= chi919@msn.com>=3B wrote:
I'm still having trouble understanding la and le... so for instance

= ninmu is a selbri
and le would be a sumti

le ninmu

and the structure of ninmu is
 =3Bx1 is a woman

so for the distinction between THE and A?
and why is someone's name x1 =3D la?

and why are le and la necessary= if they are place holders for the object=2C when the selbri describes that= object?

Color coding for safety: Windows Live Hotmail alerts yo= u to suspicious email. Sign up today.

Anything which can conceivably occupy the x1 of a gi= smu can be {le gismu}. {cribe}=2C by itself=2C for example=2C is an observa= tive=2C as in "Bear!"=2C just as {fagri} is "Fire!". Using a gismu in this = way is what's called an observative. (As a side note=2C {cribe} actually me= ans {zo'e cribe zo'e}: "something is a bear of species something"=2C and is= a brivla.)

{le cribe} means "the bear"=2C that is=2C a particular bear that you ha= ve in mind=2C whether it be the stuffed bear you had as a kid=2C or the bea= r that ate your porridge. This is different from {cribe} in that you are in= dicating one particular bear. It can be anything that you=2C the speaker=2C= would call a bear=2C whether it be an actual bear or not.

{la cribe} means "Bear"=2C as in something which is named Bear=2C wheth= er that be Frank Bear=2C the author=2C a large dog named Bear (which=2C I b= elieve=2C one of us has)=2C or even a plane named Bear. This is different f= rom both {cribe} and {le cribe} in that you are indicating something which = may not have any resemblance to a bear=2C but for whatever reason bears the= name. (Ugh=2C a pun....)

There is also {lo cribe}=2C which means "a bear"=2C that is=2C anything= which could conceivably be a bear. In this case=2C you are not indicating = anything in particular=2C but a general class. In this case=2C your teddy b= ear could not (arguably) be {lo cribe}=2C Frank Bear certainly would not=2C= but the black bears of the Americas and the one that ate your porridge are= all {lo cribe}.

{la}=2C {le}=2C and {lo} are what are known as articles: they alert the= listener that that which follows is a referrent=2C and also perform the ta= sk of converting a gismu into a sumti.

Take=2C for instance=2C the t= wo sentences:

ninmu clite
woman-ish type-of being polite (A feminine kind of polit= eness?)
x1 is a woman-ish type-of being polite in matter x2 according to= custom x3

le ninmu cu clite
the woman is polite
the woman is = polite in matter x2 according to custom x3

In the first sentence=2C ninmu combines with clite in what is called a = tanru=2C which is simlar to a metaphor or compound word=2C whereas in the s= econd the article {le} turns ninmu into a sumti whitch fills in the x1 of {= clite}.

I hope I'm not confusing anyone....

--
mu'o mi'e .topy'at.
.i.a'o.e'e ko klama le bende pe denpa bu

Windows Live = Hotmail now works up to 70% faster. S= ign up today. = --_3221c744-7f21-45ac-94c3-4f5d927ad7f6_--