From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Nov 13 22:06:38 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:06:38 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0rpF-0002qi-VT for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:06:37 -0800 Received: from web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.200.108]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L0rpB-0002qb-MW for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:06:37 -0800 Received: (qmail 52094 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Nov 2008 06:06:27 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=F9MKMoB6EmpWVFM9wKPlaE4CTDuPO9U/A7i0at+/kp5AorWaGXM+jVyVb/k3ZBA9a3rP3mlaAW3SEX1YNQTnoWe+fH0Y1+CDB5N3b6e/IAPoI+WgUsOCeB8iNIPx18O2QCNBwEsyibE2hGbP8XgdtHG5LTxwwNn4DJHgII3LMUM=; X-YMail-OSG: YrMgkmQVM1lz1BALVTORU.5dPwKl1AMjelHdXFzQPPk8ukG2PX_811KV75IrHHO98_qFQbn6SBrRK_TLqI_izo_StefPLaWEdFKf.i0y04WZlBWdqz3DbQ0FzM4p4._xYJN13oYzvmaPXRB3nRS9NcseespaL7VmcJs7RjKCDBy71egz0cNQTleA1SPn Received: from [84.195.57.199] by web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:06:27 PST Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2008 22:06:27 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Gysel Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: And more le and lo To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <96f789a60811131238w61a54c0k3d79f01eaec10005@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1348744878-1226642787=:52053" Message-ID: <445000.52053.qm@web30405.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1041 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: to_mu1975@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0-1348744878-1226642787=:52053 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii it should be "le". Why? Because it is a particular thing you you have in mind, namely, "that thing which attacked me".Yes I thought of that too. But is 'a dog' really specific? Let's say the story continues: "A dog attacked me last night. It was near the bridge. The dog jumped on me." When I say: 'the dog jumped on me', now it means that i'm referring to a particular dog, the dog which i introduced two sentences before. What's the difference? --- On Thu, 11/13/08, Michael Turniansky wrote: From: Michael Turniansky Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: And more le and lo To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 9:38 PM On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Tom Gysel wrote: > Since 'le' carries the requirement of having a specific thing in mind, and > 'lo' has to refer to something which really fits the description, which > gadri (or any other solution) would we use for ' a dog' in the sentence: ' a > dog attacked me last night'? (bearing in mind that it was dark and so maybe > it was a dog, or a wolf, or any other doglike creature.) If one were to use the CLL definition, then really, it should be "le". Why? Because it is a particular thing you you have in mind, namely, "that thing which attacked me". That being said, I'm surprised to find that no one has yet short-circuited this whole discussion with reference to xorlo ( http://www.lojban.org/tiki//tiki-index.php?page=How+to+use+xorlo&bl ). While not yet officially official, it's been accepted unanimously by the BPFK, and is in common use in the lojban community. In short, the part of xorlo that is relevant here is that there is no longer any veridical (truthiness) component to "lo", so that, under xorlo "lo" would be the right word to use in that sentence. --gejyspa --0-1348744878-1226642787=:52053 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii 
it should be
"le".  Why?  Because it is a particular thing you you have in mind,
namely, "that thing which attacked me".
Yes I thought of that too.
But is 'a dog' really specific? Let's say the story continues: "A dog attacked me last night. It was near the bridge. The dog jumped on me."
When I say: 'the dog jumped on me', now it means that i'm referring to a particular dog, the dog which i introduced two sentences before.

What's the difference?


--- On Thu, 11/13/08, Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Michael Turniansky <mturniansky@gmail.com>
Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: And more le and lo
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
Date: Thursday, November 13, 2008, 9:38 PM

On Thu, Nov 13, 2008 at 2:16 PM, Tom Gysel <to_mu1975@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Since 'le' carries the requirement of having a specific thing in
mind, and
> 'lo' has to refer to something which really fits the description,
which
> gadri (or any other solution) would we use for ' a dog' in the
sentence: ' a
> dog attacked me last night'? (bearing in mind that it was dark and so
maybe
> it was a dog, or a wolf, or any other doglike creature.)

  If one were to use the CLL definition, then really, it should be
"le".  Why?  Because it is a particular thing you you have in mind,
namely, "that thing which attacked me".

  That being said, I'm surprised to find that no one has yet
short-circuited this whole discussion with reference to xorlo (
http://www.lojban.org/tiki//tiki-index.php?page=How+to+use+xorlo&bl ).
 While not yet officially official, it's been accepted
 unanimously by
the BPFK, and is in common use in the lojban community.  In short, the
part of xorlo that is relevant here is that there is no longer any
veridical (truthiness) component to "lo", so that, under xorlo
"lo"
would be the right word to use in that sentence.

                      --gejyspa




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