From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Nov 25 12:31:26 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:31:26 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L54ZB-0007rZ-Rh for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:31:26 -0800 Received: from web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com ([68.142.200.110]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with smtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1L54Yy-0007p4-JP for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:31:25 -0800 Received: (qmail 1225 invoked by uid 60001); 25 Nov 2008 20:31:03 -0000 DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; q=dns; c=nofws; s=s1024; d=yahoo.com; h=X-YMail-OSG:Received:X-Mailer:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:In-Reply-To:MIME-Version:Content-Type:Message-ID; b=tvYIuk//2gTXv8d6xV8PFiM/mD5wXrX4LIur//ykEVHcv1wMrH0OAlr7LFCo49F5kCVWEhd7PtV6elZxo2hxxecvdmbsQshVvo5tiWwzne8bAlHt8eB7kWHii8qTYpD7H2ZYYpJVdEuG6sGw5O1u3KyLPtTTNcNZJRRKZcemDKY=; X-YMail-OSG: 8ZmfVYcVM1mCde0KWYDMFzgq0xVaNDbDN13u8.IGH1y6EV.y92cyH56918CodXZApFzX92ix1gYgS.ZNQYZimN23wbjw4158mPGA68LpAtyQkN7wSSIsFWz6.Af8f.FDaCMkuFVSlmmlkFb.zd_A.fn3X3td5yBDy15KhJEKGdp5pM0fNVMT_UnsP5sn Received: from [81.164.161.135] by web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:31:03 PST Date: Tue, 25 Nov 2008 12:31:03 -0800 (PST) From: Tom Gysel Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: cmavo To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org, lojban-list@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <925d17560811250504p3605e24u49ee7a98cb27d0b6@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0-1234375486-1227645063=:763" Message-ID: <918110.763.qm@web30407.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1061 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: to_mu1975@yahoo.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0-1234375486-1227645063=:763 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you Xorxes.=20 That was exactly what I wanted to know.=20 So the BAI cmavo are almost never used? OK, won't bother with memorizing th= em. I do want to memorize the most frequently used cmavo, I'm currently working= with the lojban text of 'The Prophet' by Kahlil Gibran and translated by M= att Arnold, and in almost every sentence there's a CV'V cmavo (not even cou= nting the basic "ko'a") I would be interested to know which CV'V cmavo (and other cmavo) are most u= sed in this particular text and/or in general in lojban text/speech. To kno= w what is worth memorizing and what not. I remember someone figuring out the most frequent sentence-templates in loj= ban utterances such as IRC.=20 Maybe its likewise possible to find out which lojban words are most frequen= tly used in texts. I wonder, would this technically be an easy thing to do?= (sorry, I'm no techie)=20 Thanks, Tom --- On Tue, 11/25/08, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: From: Jorge Llamb=EDas Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: cmavo To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Date: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 2:04 PM On Mon, Nov 24, 2008 at 6:33 PM, Tom Gysel wrote: > > is there a method to the cmavo-madness? Some. > some seem to be derived from gismu (me'e, po'e, ci'o, ju'o,....) > others do not. Correct. > i cannot find out. are these then randomly chosen? There are islands of method. For example in vi/va/vu, zi/za/zu/, ve'i/ve'a/ve'u/ve'e, ze'i/ze'a/ze'u/ze'e, you can see a rule, so they were not chosen completely at random. The choice of "v" and "z" here might have been random (or inherited from Loglan). You can see another rule in fa/fe/fi/fo/fu. But there is no rule to cover all cmavo, no. > is there a way of (more) easily memorizing them? It's probably worth memorizing all CV cmavo (they are almost all used with relatively high frequency), it's probably not worth memorizing all CV'V cmavo. But everyone has their peferred method of learning. I rather not memorize what is never used, so what I tend to remember is only what I use or see others using. > (i mean, i can remember me'e very easily because i see the rafsi of 'cmene') All BAI cmavo (except do'e and tai actually) have a gismu associated with them, but they are not necessarily identical to a rafsi of that gismu. Most of the BAIs are never used however, so I wouldn't especially recommend commiting them to memmory. mu'o mi'e xorxes =0A=0A=0A --0-1234375486-1227645063=:763 Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thank you Xorxes.

That was exactl= y what I wanted to know.


So the BAI cmavo are almost never used= ? OK, won't bother with memorizing them.
I do want to memorize the most = frequently used cmavo, I'm currently working with the lojban text of 'The P= rophet' by Kahlil Gibran and translated by Matt Arnold, and in almost every= sentence there's a CV'V cmavo (not even counting the basic "ko'a")
I wo= uld be interested to know which CV'V cmavo (and other cmavo) are most used = in this particular text and/or in general in lojban text/speech. To know wh= at is worth memorizing and what not.
I remember someone figuring out the= most frequent sentence-templates in lojban utterances such as IRC.
May= be its likewise possible to find out which lojban words are most frequently= used in texts. I wonder, would this technically be an easy thing to do? (sorry, I'm no techie)

Thanks,
Tom

--- On Tue, 11/25/= 08, Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com> wrote:
From: Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: cmavo
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.orgDate: Tuesday, November 25, 2008, 2:04 PM

On Mon, Nov 24, 200=
8 at 6:33 PM, Tom Gysel <to_mu1975@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> =
is there a method to the cmavo-madness?

Some.

> some seem =
to be derived from gismu (me'e, po'e, ci'o,
ju'o,....)
> others do=
 not.

Correct.

> i cannot find out. are these then randoml=
y chosen?

There are islands of method. For example in vi/va/vu, zi/z=
a/zu/,
ve'i/ve'a/ve'u/ve'e, ze'i/ze'a/ze'u/ze'e, you
can see a rule, =
so they
were not chosen completely at random. The choice of "v"
 and
"z" here
might have been random (or inherited from Loglan). You =
can see another
rule in fa/fe/fi/fo/fu. But there is no rule to cover al=
l cmavo, no.

> is there a way of (more) easily memorizing them?
It's probably worth memorizing all CV cmavo (they are almost all used=

with relatively high frequency), it's probably not worth memorizing
=
all CV'V cmavo. But everyone has their peferred method of learning. I
ra=
ther not memorize what is never used, so what I tend to remember is
only=
 what I use or see others using.

> (i mean, i can remember me'e v=
ery easily because i see the rafsi of
'cmene')

All BAI cmavo (exc=
ept do'e and tai actually) have a gismu associated
with them, but they a=
re not necessarily identical to a rafsi of that
gismu. Most of the BAIs =
are never used however, so I wouldn't
especially recommend commiting the=
m to memmory.

mu'o mi'e
 xorxes




=0A=0A = --0-1234375486-1227645063=:763--