From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Dec 16 16:37:27 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:37:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LCkPn-0002S8-HW for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:37:27 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.241]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LCkPX-0002PW-Mp for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:37:27 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so4384702rvf.46 for ; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:37:04 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=XlC45ZccxE8R70T7DUCM56nVDBm2TkABj3dVg2Uibpw=; b=EVOYHIWU340mVHSP0gf7b2IuVyvVls9sROOxYMmVS+oP5f089YRnkafXM9+J4me3HX RujdAmRn9KkQNo7Cs2Sl0NI4MieQmWMzF1x1u4yXVR7V0Yvoy3DRt1czRIHpPB3RW4BL h+SGZ7YJ4PIt1JtKHjdIPU5cfPg45rM+oYKhU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=TgtTZvID37+KjtjEHOi9451tWR18LguZQxPy92S6lsMSUGkNoU/iKOqa7Zbm14y2JH eEKfu1KH8MDF8mf5K02C3oIdEGezamBZ5989uI6cBfjstbw62EJ3muYEwcG4ebJb0bZd T8smCOk94U6H/dZ+2ZrMbSDX5OevQC1K4QSEE= Received: by 10.140.144.6 with SMTP id r6mr62476rvd.185.1229474224187; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:37:04 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.194.15 with HTTP; Tue, 16 Dec 2008 16:37:04 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560812161637y2caa5a41i32372fc376cf603a@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 16 Dec 2008 21:37:04 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: About the negators In-Reply-To: <200812161859.52969.phma@phma.optus.nu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <70697fa40812152124u39a177a2hc52d604e9a30e469@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560812160908j49f6d818y1fdcdf21bfddfb28@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60812161137u6919c05cyf5958e9949ccfaf7@mail.gmail.com> <200812161859.52969.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1104 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 8:59 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > Now consider {su'oda na renro lo cutci gi'e karnypre}. I'm going to try to > transform it. If I do it wrong, please tell me. > su'oda na renro lo cutci gi'e karnypre > su'oda na renro lo cutci .ije su'oda karnypre Here you are assuming {gi'e} has scope over {su'o da}. Whatever the first part says, the second part now says that there is at least one journalist. But what we had in the first sentence was: su'oda ge na renro lo cutci gi karnypre =su'oda ge karnypre gi na renro lo cutci =su'oda ge karnypre ginai renro lo cutci =su'oda karnypre gi'enai renro lo cutci =su'oda karnypre gi'e na renro lo cutci > If what you mean is "There is a journalist who doesn't throw a shoe", that's > {su'oda renro lo cutci nagi'e karnypre}. That one too, yes. So the scope of {na} in {na gi'e} is just {renro lo cutci}. > All sumti are terms, but not all terms are sumti. {naku} is a term but not a > sumti. Even though it's not a sumti, it can be the object of a preposition A preposition is part of a term. {naku} is already a full term and so can't be the object of a preposition. > or > {pe} (or any other GOI). So you can say weird things like {le gerku goi naku > cu tavla le mlatu ba naku}. That's {ba [ku] naku} at the end, two separate terms. (Not that this tells us much about the scope of {na}.) mu'o mi'e xorxes