From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Dec 31 09:11:12 2008 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:11:12 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LI4bA-0002p6-82 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:11:12 -0800 Received: from rv-out-0708.google.com ([209.85.198.240]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LI4b5-0002ny-8z for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:11:11 -0800 Received: by rv-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b17so6121017rvf.46 for ; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:11:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=UBejudYMzwIJpmmvucxWUh5K6MlONIddzL0pX8ROrAI=; b=JLWKPXmmepsiFRsaKow89GF9HjgILFYNVRuRl9lJwNgxGbXp4JW14qpDXb6M3U0Mw0 F1pR5d8LITOpUI0OLESfOIjhmMf6tIJmEQy7sE5ZBwjai1PuMXTVHPJBj37L8C6OZ/5C +ZYXQzj5WWSAjSRl/KuIkKUH3Lzrfy9OnBYe4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=dnNcGvCXeetcTnH+F+Uhj/P6I0WTXUJldtOdULbwT/Lts/T0P/RWiWXzX2akg3VI1+ yGh0tHiBFnbVZlmZbjaHclCLmqOhFtAKKpY7sIQ8IT3i0KVb/wtrBgGTk9VigNBn+CXv Z7dcWCPmvwl3fbU7bgOgLUkvo4JI2prhAIRy4= Received: by 10.140.127.13 with SMTP id z13mr7899834rvc.145.1230743465701; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:11:05 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.141.194.15 with HTTP; Wed, 31 Dec 2008 09:11:05 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <925d17560812310911l49f8626eqef78e5ded4373f73@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 2008 14:11:05 -0300 From: "=?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?=" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: weirder modal connections In-Reply-To: <5a3750120812310034g55b25657pd5b95d2cc52cc7@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5a3750120812310034g55b25657pd5b95d2cc52cc7@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1132 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Dec 31, 2008 at 5:34 AM, Oleksii Melnyk wrote: > coi certu > su ta'o zo'o pe'i zo coi na drani le ka te rinsa kei le nu zo'e gubni benji vo'a > i mi facki fi le zmadu drani rinsa > be'enai certu .i mi na jimpe lo du'u ma kau sa'e nabmi do tu'a zo coi .i zo ju'i .a zo pe'u cu simlu lo ka ce'u ji'a drani .i ma krinu lo nu pilno lu be'e nai li'u .e nai lu be'e li'u > ta'onai > > Is there The Way to make a modal bridi connection with the first bridi > on non-x2 place of unconverted modal? I don't recall any rule that says the first bridi corresponds to the x2 place of the unconverted "modal". The bridi that comes after the tag goes in the x1 place, but the place for the other bridi is unspecified. (In many/most cases it will be the x2, but that's just because the underlying predicate usually only has two relevant places.) > CLL describes the way to swap x1 > with something, but how can we swap out x2. > > For example to say: > zo'e basna le nu "feature" kei lenu "action" kei > in a bit more friendly way, like > "action taken place" .i "emphasizing feature" "emphasizED feature", right? > we need to get basna's x3 into x2 place and x2 into x1 I think getting x2 into x1 is enough. > So far i've found 2 possibilities: > > 1. converting selbri twice (... fi'o se te basna ...) -- which, imho, > would make the text uncomprehensible for human > > 2. "masking" all but 2 needed places (fi'o se basna be zi'o) -- not > sure, how it works for more distant places, "lot" of "bei zi'o"s would > not make things prettier. > > So, have i missed "true" way, and which one is better? Those will work, but are overkill, because {fi'o se basna} by itself should be enough. "basna" can only take two events (assuming x2 of basna is an event), so there can't be any doubt about what the role of the first bridi is, but there might be a problem in the rare cases of predicates with more than two event arguments. For example "X .i fi'o se denpa bo Y". Is X the te denpa or the ve denpa? mu'o mi'e xorxes