From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jan 12 22:33:09 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:33:09 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LMcpp-0004qf-Ft for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:33:09 -0800 Received: from mail-bw0-f12.google.com ([209.85.218.12]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LMcpe-0004nq-Oa for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:33:09 -0800 Received: by bwz5 with SMTP id 5so22092586bwz.10 for ; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:32:48 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition:references; bh=2tAZC8pOqzYm7Snjt7eXuoOeIEMXVLrGsSF5rqzEdpU=; b=WuVprSP7ltYA/T0R1OD+1fyRLRuD11zh8vwYYjvRyCHVQ6CzBw7EjAHjMqvzJitna9 50bjAMdUCKW+3S0HTY5eRWCATLF053b5fcFThfNOCLyIqU2AFFRcrh4bpdSSzXNbZgt8 csqDjtgYgQTdFeig+oBgUHtZsQpvs/FG/iuXE= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:content-transfer-encoding:content-disposition :references; b=W3QKjU91I+8cBVDpTcPaI19FdXBEX39EgwVAFY6P2GRa57BTLmSLhcgnKjLJibyGww Hdf/3D3IYmGhqZaoyIV0MyjcQsBNN1eM+CVnLu2fQc0QAiFr+vCXL4TY7IbVIx1UTtFk 9LNDQ4HdFfKlXOSqAlVaUvEdbX4gTgDxDiR6Y= Received: by 10.223.126.69 with SMTP id b5mr11737290fas.54.1231828368793; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:32:48 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.223.109.195 with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jan 2009 22:32:48 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2009 01:32:48 -0500 From: "Brett Williams" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: fa fe fi se te... In-Reply-To: <5715b9300901020747s28c0d177ib421215aac0afcae@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline References: <5715b9300901020747s28c0d177ib421215aac0afcae@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: -0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1168 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mungojelly@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Fri, Jan 2, 2009 at 10:47 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > > Which family takes precedence if both are in a sentence? FA or SE? > eg. > I talk to you about the book in lojban > mi tavla do le cukta SE does. SE binds so closely that it's often folded into the same word: se tavla --> selta'a For some people I think it might be useful to look at a series of sentences like the following, all of which have the same meaning. .i mi tavla do le cukta la .lojban. .i mi do tavla le cukta la .lojban. .i mi do le cukta cu tavla la .lojban. .i mi do le cukta la .lojban. tavla .i do se tavla mi le cukta la .lojban. .i do mi se tavla le cukta la .lojban. .i do mi le cutka cu se tavla la .lojban. .i do mi le cukta la .lojban. se tavla .i le cukta cu te tavla do mi la .lojban. .i le cukta do te tavla mi la .lojban. .i le cukta do mi te tavla la .lojban. .i le cukta do mi la .lojban. te tavla .i la .lojban. ve tavla do le cukta mi .i la .lojban. do ve tavla le cukta mi .i la .lojban. do le cukta cu ve tavla mi .i la .lojban. do le cukta mi ve tavla also .i fa mi fe do fi le cukta fo la .lojban. tavla .i fe mi fa do fi le cukta fo la .lojban. se tavla .i fi mi fe do fa le cukta fo la .lojban. te tavla .i fo mi fe do fi le cukta fa la .lojban. ve tavla The SE establishes a ground and then the sumti go in the slots. One of the most important things you should learn about the official rules about what happens if you use a FA tag and then next an unlabelled sumti and things like that is-- DON"!T Geez, it's crazy! Once you've tagged one thing, you should keep tagging for the rest of the sentence, because us mere mortals are just trying to read here. Tricks like that (or the sevetevexeseteve shell game for instance) can be fun puzzles but should be kept away from practical communication. SE is really part of a bag of tricks (along with jai) for bringing things to the x1, which is both convenient (when you say a sumti and then want to say what it does, often it "te" or "ve" something) and necessary (because the x1 is what gets used by gadri & etc). FA is part of a bag of tricks for conveniently tying things into a bridi, along with BAI and tense tagging and so forth. They are perfectly safe when operated properly! It even makes sense after a while. :) I rarely look at a sentence anymore and feel confused about its place structure. At first "se" seems like a transformation, but eventually it seems like.. well, like the ordinary x2 is in the x1 slot and viceversa. And like that makes sense! Promise. mu'o mi'e la stela se ckiku