From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Jan 15 11:05:39 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:05:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LNXX9-0006zD-0c for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:05:39 -0800 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.170]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LNXX3-0006yw-NX for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:05:38 -0800 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so1355776wfa.25 for ; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:05:32 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:in-reply-to:mime-version:content-type:references; bh=9uKVd8kYQCUj2Woz9hSFRSiNrHmwKFyCYaLsMi0PgVg=; b=G/hdAgsgDrQZkUtxtVTxt82GzfFNz5gpSIsr4P7mbTGnPJmdDkNBF1y8GR2moWmMrM X1qcP7p/0WguQ+nkAEV+p8nwpE/Ogc+3ecLuz1jBsWsLJBf9JNqMbH7b9da/cabuDnQS +YPs5FCoezBQVntMB645S8IAo5iKY6A4xOZY4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:in-reply-to:mime-version :content-type:references; b=JvcRnV4NpPqWPku5vNiOw4YctzJ92xQcPulu4lDmTL7d7toj9DUofZEQqyFnwBvb4o i5gFZlY0xbtVQwYcIXxvuvOl78Ujs3MO/lBnPLeZJ/q1ecG+tM3SmxxgJlb2OXMgmWGL GpvEm/X9N2p4ksRd2huCkh3f9Ea2RWSK65Ul8= Received: by 10.142.199.10 with SMTP id w10mr651363wff.257.1232046332656; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:05:32 -0800 (PST) Received: by 10.143.90.10 with HTTP; Thu, 15 Jan 2009 11:05:32 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <96f789a60901151105p65fdf1atb1b92c6bda7f7022@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:05:32 -0500 From: "Michael Turniansky" To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: example of du'u please? In-Reply-To: <96f789a60901151043x59806890y3c7271fc4f680a89@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_266226_29968932.1232046332640" References: <5715b9300901151025n300d7025y22f20c9380ca7a0f@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60901151043x59806890y3c7271fc4f680a89@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1200 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners ------=_Part_266226_29968932.1232046332640 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Two small corrections. I meant "ka", not "ku", and the example sentences should have been translated "I thought I went to the store from home" and "I thought I went to the store from home in regards to yesterday". On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:43 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > Okay, "du'u", like all abstractors (nu, ku, ni and the less often > encountered ones such as su'u, si'o and pu'u) takes a bridi and wraps it all > up into one little package that acts as a selbri. In particular, that means > you can take a whole sentence like "mi klama le zarci le zdani" (I went to > the store from home), stick an abstractor in front of it (in this case > du'u), and treat this as a single unit, meaning something akin to "a fact of > me going to the store from home". Stick a lo/le in front of that and it > becomes a sumti meaning this. This sumti is used in slots that (in general) > require talking about abstract ideas or thoughts. For example "mi jinvi lo > du'u mi klama le zarci le zdani" -- "I thought I went to the store". If you > want anything to follow this package, you usually need to end it with the > terminator "kei", otherwise the following stuff will be unintentionally > wrapped up within the abstraction -- mi jinvi lo du'u mi klama le zarci le > zdani kei lo prulamdei ("I thought I went to the store in regards to > yesterday"). See chapter 11 of the reference grammar for more information. > > > Hope this helps > --gejyspa > > > On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 1:25 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > >> I'm finding this a lot and the definition "abstractor: predication/bridi >> abstractor; x1 is predication [bridi] expressed in sentence x2 at 0 >> (cf. mintu, dunli)" is not very helpful to me. Could someone give me an >> example of "du'u" in a real world sentence and explain how it affects the >> sentence. I've found sentences with du'u in it that have english versions >> of that sentence but I can't figure out what the "du'u" is actually doing! >> >> - Luke Bergen >> > > ------=_Part_266226_29968932.1232046332640 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline Jm5ic3A7IFR3byBzbWFsbCBjb3JyZWN0aW9ucy4mbmJzcDsgSSBtZWFudCAmcXVvdDtrYSZxdW90 Oywgbm90ICZxdW90O2t1JnF1b3Q7LCBhbmQgdGhlIGV4YW1wbGUgc2VudGVuY2VzIHNob3VsZCBo YXZlIGJlZW4gdHJhbnNsYXRlZCAmcXVvdDtJIHRob3VnaHQgSSB3ZW50IHRvIHRoZSBzdG9yZSBm cm9tIGhvbWUmcXVvdDsgYW5kICZxdW90O0kgdGhvdWdodCBJIHdlbnQgdG8gdGhlIHN0b3JlIGZy b20gaG9tZSBpbiByZWdhcmRzIHRvIHllc3RlcmRheSZxdW90Oy48YnI+Cjxicj48YnI+PGRpdiBj bGFzcz0iZ21haWxfcXVvdGUiPk9uIFRodSwgSmFuIDE1LCAyMDA5IGF0IDE6NDMgUE0sIE1pY2hh ZWwgVHVybmlhbnNreSA8c3BhbiBkaXI9Imx0ciI+Jmx0OzxhIGhyZWY9Im1haWx0bzptdHVybmlh bnNreUBnbWFpbC5jb20iPm10dXJuaWFuc2t5QGdtYWlsLmNvbTwvYT4mZ3Q7PC9zcGFuPiB3cm90 ZTo8YnI+PGJsb2NrcXVvdGUgY2xhc3M9ImdtYWlsX3F1b3RlIiBzdHlsZT0iYm9yZGVyLWxlZnQ6 IDFweCBzb2xpZCByZ2IoMjA0LCAyMDQsIDIwNCk7IG1hcmdpbjogMHB0IDBwdCAwcHQgMC44ZXg7 IHBhZGRpbmctbGVmdDogMWV4OyI+Ck9rYXksICZxdW90O2R1JiMzOTt1JnF1b3Q7LCBsaWtlIGFs bCBhYnN0cmFjdG9ycyAobnUsIGt1LCBuaSBhbmQgdGhlIGxlc3Mgb2Z0ZW4gZW5jb3VudGVyZWQg b25lcyBzdWNoIGFzIHN1JiMzOTt1LCBzaSYjMzk7byBhbmQgcHUmIzM5O3UpIHRha2VzIGEgYnJp ZGkgYW5kIHdyYXBzIGl0IGFsbCB1cCBpbnRvIG9uZSBsaXR0bGUgcGFja2FnZSB0aGF0IGFjdHMg YXMgYSBzZWxicmkuJm5ic3A7IEluIHBhcnRpY3VsYXIsIHRoYXQgbWVhbnMgeW91IGNhbiB0YWtl IGEgd2hvbGUgc2VudGVuY2UgbGlrZSAmcXVvdDttaSBrbGFtYSBsZSB6YXJjaSBsZSB6ZGFuaSZx dW90OyAoSSB3ZW50IHRvIHRoZSBzdG9yZSBmcm9tIGhvbWUpLCBzdGljayBhbiBhYnN0cmFjdG9y IGluIGZyb250IG9mIGl0IChpbiB0aGlzIGNhc2UgZHUmIzM5O3UpLCBhbmQgdHJlYXQgdGhpcyBh cyBhIHNpbmdsZSB1bml0LCBtZWFuaW5nIHNvbWV0aGluZyBha2luIHRvICZxdW90O2EgZmFjdCBv ZiBtZSBnb2luZyB0byB0aGUgc3RvcmUgZnJvbSBob21lJnF1b3Q7LiZuYnNwOyBTdGljayBhIGxv L2xlIGluIGZyb250IG9mIHRoYXQgYW5kIGl0IGJlY29tZXMgYSBzdW10aSBtZWFuaW5nIHRoaXMu Jm5ic3A7IFRoaXMgc3VtdGkgaXMgdXNlZCBpbiBzbG90cyB0aGF0IChpbiBnZW5lcmFsKSByZXF1 aXJlIHRhbGtpbmcgYWJvdXQgYWJzdHJhY3QgaWRlYXMgb3IgdGhvdWdodHMuJm5ic3A7IEZvciBl eGFtcGxlICZxdW90O21pIGppbnZpIGxvIGR1JiMzOTt1IG1pIGtsYW1hIGxlIHphcmNpIGxlIHpk YW5pJnF1b3Q7IC0tICZxdW90O0kgdGhvdWdodCBJIHdlbnQgdG8gdGhlIHN0b3JlJnF1b3Q7LiZu YnNwOyBJZiB5b3Ugd2FudCBhbnl0aGluZyB0byBmb2xsb3cgdGhpcyBwYWNrYWdlLCB5b3UgdXN1 YWxseSBuZWVkIHRvIGVuZCBpdCB3aXRoIHRoZSB0ZXJtaW5hdG9yICZxdW90O2tlaSZxdW90Oywg b3RoZXJ3aXNlIHRoZSBmb2xsb3dpbmcgc3R1ZmYgd2lsbCBiZSB1bmludGVudGlvbmFsbHkgd3Jh cHBlZCB1cCB3aXRoaW4gdGhlIGFic3RyYWN0aW9uIC0tIG1pIGppbnZpIGxvIGR1JiMzOTt1IG1p IGtsYW1hIGxlIHphcmNpIGxlIHpkYW5pIGtlaSBsbyBwcnVsYW1kZWkgKCZxdW90O0kgdGhvdWdo dCBJIHdlbnQgdG8gdGhlIHN0b3JlIGluIHJlZ2FyZHMgdG8geWVzdGVyZGF5JnF1b3Q7KS4mbmJz cDsgU2VlIGNoYXB0ZXIgMTEgb2YgdGhlIHJlZmVyZW5jZSBncmFtbWFyIGZvciBtb3JlIGluZm9y bWF0aW9uLiZuYnNwOyA8YnI+Cgo8YnI+Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IEhvcGUgdGhp cyBoZWxwczxicj4mbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsmbmJz cDsmbmJzcDsmbmJzcDsgLS1nZWp5c3BhPGRpdj48ZGl2PjwvZGl2PjxkaXYgY2xhc3M9IldqM0M3 YyI+PGJyPjxicj48ZGl2IGNsYXNzPSJnbWFpbF9xdW90ZSI+T24gVGh1LCBKYW4gMTUsIDIwMDkg YXQgMToyNSBQTSwgTHVrZSBCZXJnZW4gPHNwYW4gZGlyPSJsdHIiPiZsdDs8YSBocmVmPSJtYWls dG86bHVrZWFiZXJnZW5AZ21haWwuY29tIiB0YXJnZXQ9Il9ibGFuayI+bHVrZWFiZXJnZW5AZ21h aWwuY29tPC9hPiZndDs8L3NwYW4+IHdyb3RlOjxicj4KCjxibG9ja3F1b3RlIGNsYXNzPSJnbWFp bF9xdW90ZSIgc3R5bGU9ImJvcmRlci1sZWZ0OiAxcHggc29saWQgcmdiKDIwNCwgMjA0LCAyMDQp OyBtYXJnaW46IDBwdCAwcHQgMHB0IDAuOGV4OyBwYWRkaW5nLWxlZnQ6IDFleDsiPkkmIzM5O20g ZmluZGluZyB0aGlzIGEgbG90IGFuZCB0aGUgZGVmaW5pdGlvbiAmcXVvdDthYnN0cmFjdG9yOiBw cmVkaWNhdGlvbi9icmlkaSBhYnN0cmFjdG9yOyB4MSBpcyBwcmVkaWNhdGlvbiBbYnJpZGldIGV4 cHJlc3NlZCBpbiBzZW50ZW5jZSB4MiZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyZuYnNwOyBhdCZuYnNwOyZu YnNwOyAwJm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7Jm5ic3A7IChjZi4gbWludHUsIGR1bmxpKSZxdW90OyBpcyBub3Qg dmVyeSBoZWxwZnVsIHRvIG1lLiZuYnNwOyBDb3VsZCBzb21lb25lIGdpdmUgbWUgYW4gZXhhbXBs ZSBvZiAmcXVvdDtkdSYjMzk7dSZxdW90OyBpbiBhIHJlYWwgd29ybGQgc2VudGVuY2UgYW5kIGV4 cGxhaW4gaG93IGl0IGFmZmVjdHMgdGhlIHNlbnRlbmNlLiZuYnNwOyBJJiMzOTt2ZSBmb3VuZCBz ZW50ZW5jZXMgd2l0aCBkdSYjMzk7dSBpbiBpdCB0aGF0IGhhdmUgZW5nbGlzaCB2ZXJzaW9ucyBv ZiB0aGF0IHNlbnRlbmNlIGJ1dCBJIGNhbiYjMzk7dCBmaWd1cmUgb3V0IHdoYXQgdGhlICZxdW90 O2R1JiMzOTt1JnF1b3Q7IGlzIGFjdHVhbGx5IGRvaW5nITxiciBjbGVhcj0iYWxsIj4KCjxmb250 IGNvbG9yPSIjODg4ODg4Ij4KPGJyPiAtIEx1a2UgQmVyZ2VuPGJyPgo8L2ZvbnQ+PC9ibG9ja3F1 b3RlPjwvZGl2Pjxicj4KPC9kaXY+PC9kaXY+PC9ibG9ja3F1b3RlPjwvZGl2Pjxicj4K ------=_Part_266226_29968932.1232046332640--