From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Mar 04 21:48:49 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:48:49 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lf6Rt-0004Za-Is for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:48:49 -0800 Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.153]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lf6Rr-0004ZI-9G for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:48:49 -0800 Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 3so2224815yxi.46 for ; Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:48:46 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=jgGHyJkHFkrvS85Ki25IvA6kD0jDIoaJEtsq7GHzLnQ=; b=mTsp2fxzeiIazjxjqLxpWahjeiutufNLp3j+zs2BbBiR+TmQHcMz4e+1+JRiiSzO2u R0GFwJukipExVcxDSY3lzxT77xo4FaZldmIB02NWiZB4pHzHug/UsVByAKewAJraDzSV 1NGFflt8evSxN4dpoKVEHwYWfgPavSsktxmDw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=Ky/yErcDkOjJLsmX7GOPzht0y899zeYb5EaUROLhTK+xed4IBtMujnD260eVzIiI6P nQLfxQxIhvSf5WTwUdDG8GScCQOURgexi66+9vxlBqxn3bKuRZVGZuOO0VhcZDQ3YEd1 jz7tYZDZrR2gTgek6MNTaiJTqKi1zU7GTV3dY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.13.6 with SMTP id 6mr603877anm.95.1236232126028; Wed, 04 Mar 2009 21:48:46 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <12d58c160903040909u29e24cd8o21ce133f6eafa8e@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090302231357.GF25033@sunflowerriver.org> <425e4ac20903032110xe9e5e8cy2853275e40383813@mail.gmail.com> <12d58c160903040909u29e24cd8o21ce133f6eafa8e@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 5 Mar 2009 00:48:45 -0500 Message-ID: <425e4ac20903042148w1d02d407m8635f149defc50ad@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: grammar check for my first few sentences From: Stela Selckiku To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1390 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: selckiku@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Mar 4, 2009 at 12:09 PM, komfo,amonan wrote: > > I've noticed a practice on IRC that limits the contents of {lu ... > li'u} to full bridi. But the restriction is actually only that the > contents be grammatical (CLL 19:9). I think of it somewhat differently. I don't just think of lu/li'u as quotes for grammatical texts, and lo'u/le'u as quotes for ungrammatical texts, like it's just mandatory marking of whether things are grammatical. I think of them as quoting two different kinds of things. With lu/li'u you're quoting an utterance, a proper statement in Lojban, but with lo'u/le'u you're just quoting a string of Lojban words. I do know that "le munje" is a valid Lojbanic statement-- it's a sumti-only statement, the kind of statement we use for answering questions. So I would certainly quote it with lu/li'u if I was saying for instance that someone said "le munje" in answer to a question: .i ko'a cusku lu mi nelci li'u (ko'a said, "I like something.") .i lu do ma nelci li'u selsku ko'e ("What do you like," said ko'e.) .i selsku ko'a fa lu le munje li'u (said ko'a, "the universe.") On the other hand, there are times when I'd want to quote the two word sequence "le munje" as just a sequence of words. For instance: ko'a: mi nelci le monji (I like the unevirse.) ko'e: xu do djisku lo'u le munje le'u (Did you mean to say "the universe"?) There I would find it strange to say "lu le munje li'u", the grammatical self-standing utterance "le munje", because to me it would be like saying: Instead of that full bridi, did you intend to just say the sumti "le munje"? This may indeed be a subtle deviation between IRC Lojban and book Lojban. I suspect many such exist. I do think it's probably best to attempt to reconcile any divergences we notice, but I also think it's probably best if we're descriptive at times, to give our earnest students here knowledge that carries over into the real world, such as it is, of jbogu'e. :) mu'o se sinma te karni mi'e selkik