From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Mar 18 06:13:40 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:13:41 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LjvaW-0002wU-Or for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:13:40 -0700 Received: from mail-qy0-f109.google.com ([209.85.221.109]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LjvaU-0002vu-7E for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:13:40 -0700 Received: by qyk7 with SMTP id 7so24712qyk.28 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:13:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ugEkP+2uZme/KhG+hF1hydjKWGJGx2RNLx+Hnjqe5Zs=; b=bmtz8vsxp0fy5VBdslsty64IAJBv08IYVdMZndjE/5yaMVaTrAqJSD1BfPvidqW5KW Z8Kvmtt54iiBjrPocQ2CLP1FA/lNXKTEWsHhIyUh0A6fkQ6CgM65zKbUVnhdAchWM35v X5unS6gh/ZQqktjQu9Nk4ocLKwapoesG9xMu0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=wlRgWTQSi1si4sPohsBWm69lP3W4gPMx4R+nCU1O1Hz6cKIh7yQ1ZjPgCuQP0sREzU 9L7QvAS+byQEFW7bakS1fqTDu+SEy3lK6oFtPmiVSxOdwlSAfbPVmwtdICQXNeqUQZl7 JhRRe2T+oZPSDSu5eMgvOh81CcoqW5dDQX4VQ= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.110.20 with SMTP id l20mr688382qcp.60.1237382012144; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 06:13:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96f789a60903180559m16c4b85cyedfdfe9a59db4153@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17560903180544o4d023061u72b410b5bf73bc31@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60903180559m16c4b85cyedfdfe9a59db4153@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 10:13:32 -0300 Message-ID: <925d17560903180613s417313a3rc6e507081f25e693@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Preliminary chapter 1 for Lojban learners From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1445 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: jjllambias@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 9:59 AM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > 2009/3/18 Jorge Llambías : >> You won't be pronouncing a different word if >> you choose a different stress than the one proposed for you. > >  Says who? The grammar. There is a very simple test to check whether two things count as instances of the same word or not: Is "zoi PORtugal whatever portuGAL cu fange selsku" a valid sentence? The two delimiters for ZOI have to be the same word. > Unlike cmavo, stress may in fact be the only difference > in cmevla  between two differently named things. But that's no relevant difference. Similarly you could use two different versions of "r" for the same name to try to convey that they refer to different people, but according to the rules of Lojban they will still be the same word. > If I have one friend > named BArux, and another name baRUX, I can distinguish them in speech > by use of stress, and I can distinguish them in writing by use of > capitals. You could, and you may even get your point across, but someone else might choose to use a different stress and they would be pronouncing the same word. > And if I don't choose to use the capitals, then the refgram > says it's the former, not the latter, that I must be talking about. > (Chapter 4, section 8: "Names may have almost any form, but always end > in a consonant, and are followed by a pause. They are penultimately > stressed, unless unusual stress is marked with capitalization.") Yes, penultimate stress is the usual rule for cmavo too. That doesn't mean that changing the stress changes the word. mu'o mi'e xorxes