From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Mar 18 13:35:07 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:35:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lk2Tj-0007cP-A4 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:35:07 -0700 Received: from wf-out-1314.google.com ([209.85.200.168]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lk2Tc-0007aJ-G7 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:35:07 -0700 Received: by wf-out-1314.google.com with SMTP id 28so225795wff.25 for ; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:34:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=bGdg2/syk7ElYQCDtaxdF1y+Ru6NJHgS4irIaF+PpSM=; b=gjs64RrOJbJJIcjAUphhbvRmSlF1RzCFXgOVcUHD86w+WautgYYu1sV7JspzkW5oHR p2YUGjQBMIcC/3oWsAGsujeg+CAASmMnLlsOx5N2iQqAUFk0vlRocxeF48qnIY2CIohe qBq7P4A/BRY+NXyZqXx5OaqSEEmMorKUmBM8c= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=tTdfE1IEuT59H6vn9NeIZ7CxHjMPR4qkpQuQTl+xRYL6mtzLR+P7xyXBkXkB9AUjY7 Yam3XK2UkRNHoDCF629vtC32ZNcAqIXDrk/eZT9xnzVSVPc5GZIhmdbSTLvYi0uyPzNS nwt5UbT4XnfPHc5hkdSQh6NYeXvXOw3iQjDZY= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.84.11 with SMTP id h11mr670791wfb.337.1237408499456; Wed, 18 Mar 2009 13:34:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <925d17560903181140i74d80fd5r47875ad4e4b13c56@mail.gmail.com> References: <925d17560903180544o4d023061u72b410b5bf73bc31@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60903180559m16c4b85cyedfdfe9a59db4153@mail.gmail.com> <200903180935.55023.phma@phma.optus.nu> <96f789a60903181059m510b1519lfcc65433c20749a9@mail.gmail.com> <925d17560903181140i74d80fd5r47875ad4e4b13c56@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 18 Mar 2009 16:34:59 -0400 Message-ID: <96f789a60903181334w6e20c201o26221de99fb74188@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Preliminary chapter 1 for Lojban learners From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1450 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners 2009/3/18 Jorge Llambías : > On Wed, Mar 18, 2009 at 2:59 PM, Michael Turniansky > There is also the case of rafsi, which can sometimes have stress, > sometimes not, and sometimes have stress in different syllables when > they have more than one, always remaining the same rafsi. So stress > does not change the meaning of a rafsi, it only changes to adjust to > brivla form rules. > That's a red herring, since rafsi are NOT words, only part of words, and therefore their stresses are deterministic. > So stress in Lojban is generally used to determine word form, but not > to distinguish two otherwise identical words. It's not clear why > cmevla should be the exception to this. There are only two categories of words whose stresses are allowed to vary: cmavo, where the meaning explicitly doesn't vary with the stress, and cmevla, whose status we are arguing, and whose non-penultimate stressing must be marked, according to the refgram. So it's chimerical at best which of two cases is an "exception" to the other. Since, as I've already demonstrated, stress alone can change the meaning of a phoneme stream, I contend that the cmavo is the "exception". And since this whole discussion started with place names, la berLIN is in Germany, while la BERlin is in Vermont. Can the same place names have different pronunciations by different people? Sure, and not just in stress, vowel sounds, and other more major changes, too. That's why cmene has an x3 place. zo legorn pu cmene la livornos lo brito. So do "la legorn" and "la livornos" refer to the same place? Yes. Are they the same cmevla? No. So just because PORtugal and portuGAL may happen to have the same referent doesn't mean they are the same cmevla, nor that the necessarily do have the same meaning (see BERlin/berLIN above). --gejyspa