From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Mar 31 22:44:00 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:44:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LotF1-0004lq-Ve for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:44:00 -0700 Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.46.153]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LotEz-0004lT-8f for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:43:59 -0700 Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 5so1978412ywm.46 for ; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:43:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=sydYwNURdv4ESPIenfiPgWYN4g99nxpxYkkSNUE0H8g=; b=VsZOKiShK20wt26shGaomM8hnIC4ReLxBRB4EjzPlwQ291oTwtbBnyWjpDYzVr0e/A Osqlelu6VmPSTj0T/5EWANktWHPgKJwX0n0ywhKYBIqXc3+RmGzVPUXjXJClbxmmuR8w guCPDASquFQeopWkFlIxRLh7JghqzYIoWN2A0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=F6jYD7Cyt6OLEPGY6IPxnmq2T2agGq7KBKYNg9mhFVM/++dCFXNo6lFqg9ko127vXq 0K4kt/pYo0bUgGqiHKhVifJl4HoibD4gsEfMt/fDnwQRlYeIW7BLCRgXxWvfbngfVoYx amSr6pMry7pl5xHInQ6hbv2q0dtD3RMRbOiqk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.100.14.10 with SMTP id 10mr5556784ann.119.1238564636166; Tue, 31 Mar 2009 22:43:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300903312101y8a22955vc5b7bed6e52e9ae6@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300903312101y8a22955vc5b7bed6e52e9ae6@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 01:43:56 -0400 Message-ID: <425e4ac20903312243n4089d005nc34ea4edadd6f731@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la'e di'u From: Stela Selckiku To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1461 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: selckiku@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Luke Bergen wrote: > So the definition of "la'e" is "the referent of (indirect pointer);".  This > seems like a very fuzzy kind of idea.  If I say "mi gleki lo nu do pu klama > lo zarci" in the next utterance will "la'e di'u" refer to my happiness, me, > or the event of "do pu klama lo zarci"?  Would the listener just have to > pick this sort of thing up from context? No it means something very specific. Each bridi is a description of a relationship, in the case of "mi gleki lo nu do pu klama lo zarci", the relationship of "gleki" between "mi" and "lo nu li'o". The referent found by "la'e" therefore is the relationship itself which the "di'u" sentence is a description of. First think about how "la'e" applies to something simpler, like a symbol or description of a symbol. "la'e lu la nicte cadzu li'u", the referent of the piece of text "la nicte cadzu", is a book by la camgusmis. If we're talking about the name "selckiku", and we say "la'e le cmene", the referent of the name, that would be the selcme, the person named, me. Now, getting very close to using it with "di'u", let's try it with a whole sentence: "la'e lu mi gleki lo nu do pu klama lo zarci li'u" -- the referent of that sentence, namely, the relationship of "gleki" asserted between "mi" and "lo nu li'o". (You could also refer to a sentence indirectly, like "la'e le jufra", referent of the sentence.) So if you say "mi gleki", that statement as a whole can be considered a symbol, which refers to a referent (the actual fact of my happiness). If you then pick it up with "di'u", you are referring then to the statement considered as a symbol. "la'e" turns that into a reference to the relationship which the statement/symbol refers to. .i dei jufra .i di'u melbi jufra & this.sentence sentence & previous.sentence beautiful sentence This is a sentence. That was a beautiful sentence. .i dei jufra .i la'e di'u fatci gi'e nai jufra & this.sentence sentence & referent.of previous.sentence fact and not sentence This is a sentence. That sentence described a fact, not a sentence. It's a rather abstract concept and I fear I've failed to explain it clearly, so someone else please take a swing too. But, um, incidentally, have you ever met "le nu go'i"? :) Grab for that first. mu'o mi'e la selckiku