From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Apr 01 09:03:12 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:03:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lp2uG-0003d7-Aj for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:03:12 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f163.google.com ([209.85.219.163]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lp2uA-0003Zs-IG for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:03:11 -0700 Received: by ewy7 with SMTP id 7so106271ewy.34 for ; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:03:00 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=zNNmAouMnFUqziaWHrV4viUfcsP5koPXQlHOhLd4DLs=; b=E0/hnNtpzSz3/8eyIkp+M0gfHqtpv6Xy76xmUlB/a5Qi2MvH5fKUZaqOr+DQttWdUx kl0gzFvL5tLTIP0Oljk03WTDAQEBzEpnKNNZu3Y+okkNA7u7YDwY+F9gVYql+OFJrNqV XC9bDjsZxbIqr8KBe+lAKylttFFCgRyIEVTfo= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=sb+XB6HLrP1YUfV/kYidRhvNsshysDkQ/usixOoqvcDzHlaIkDCyoh1uCibZyf+l7i tqQQzMqtf22NUQISDqy2yplZq6O9N0OJz9Gt35ykIav9zKGWNiEdqvd2XRyHAyySiGZ1 GWJ+Zm1RfX7N7CSBH7IF+EOSqnFSYkHIMCvqE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.77.18 with SMTP id e18mr3558503vck.85.1238601779427; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 09:02:59 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <425e4ac20903312243n4089d005nc34ea4edadd6f731@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300903312101y8a22955vc5b7bed6e52e9ae6@mail.gmail.com> <425e4ac20903312243n4089d005nc34ea4edadd6f731@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 12:02:59 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300904010902o467aa98fv958a70256f3bf49@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la'e di'u From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e64ec0ca14bb44046680735b X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1462 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0016e64ec0ca14bb44046680735b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hmm, so let's suppose the conversation: jon doesn't enjoy rock climbing. he does it anyway though. how would I express "it" in this context? I see this being maybe "la jon na prami (what word for enjoy?) lo nu rokci cpare .i ku'i la jy se go'i". Or maybe "se di'u". Neither of those look right though. It feels like there should be a way for saying "put the referent of the x2 place of some other utterance " a bad example, but what I mean is, sometimes you want to refer to something other than the relationship of the previous utterance. Is there some way to do like ".i mi ca prami lo nu mi se go'i" as in "the referent of the x2 place of the last utterance" or "x3" or "internal bridi" etc... Or maybe, is there a way to be intentionally vague like "what I was talking about back in that last utterance" thus leaving it up to the listener to understand it from context? - Luke Bergen On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:43 AM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > So the definition of "la'e" is "the referent of (indirect pointer);". > This > > seems like a very fuzzy kind of idea. If I say "mi gleki lo nu do pu > klama > > lo zarci" in the next utterance will "la'e di'u" refer to my happiness, > me, > > or the event of "do pu klama lo zarci"? Would the listener just have to > > pick this sort of thing up from context? > > > No it means something very specific. Each bridi is a description of a > relationship, in the case of "mi gleki lo nu do pu klama lo zarci", > the relationship of "gleki" between "mi" and "lo nu li'o". The > referent found by "la'e" therefore is the relationship itself which > the "di'u" sentence is a description of. > > First think about how "la'e" applies to something simpler, like a > symbol or description of a symbol. "la'e lu la nicte cadzu li'u", the > referent of the piece of text "la nicte cadzu", is a book by la > camgusmis. If we're talking about the name "selckiku", and we say > "la'e le cmene", the referent of the name, that would be the selcme, > the person named, me. Now, getting very close to using it with > "di'u", let's try it with a whole sentence: "la'e lu mi gleki lo nu do > pu klama lo zarci li'u" -- the referent of that sentence, namely, the > relationship of "gleki" asserted between "mi" and "lo nu li'o". (You > could also refer to a sentence indirectly, like "la'e le jufra", > referent of the sentence.) > > So if you say "mi gleki", that statement as a whole can be considered > a symbol, which refers to a referent (the actual fact of my > happiness). If you then pick it up with "di'u", you are referring > then to the statement considered as a symbol. "la'e" turns that into > a reference to the relationship which the statement/symbol refers to. > > .i dei jufra .i di'u melbi jufra > & this.sentence sentence & previous.sentence beautiful sentence > This is a sentence. That was a beautiful sentence. > > .i dei jufra .i la'e di'u fatci gi'e nai jufra > & this.sentence sentence & referent.of previous.sentence fact and not > sentence > This is a sentence. That sentence described a fact, not a sentence. > > It's a rather abstract concept and I fear I've failed to explain it > clearly, so someone else please take a swing too. But, um, > incidentally, have you ever met "le nu go'i"? :) Grab for that first. > > mu'o mi'e la selckiku > > > > --0016e64ec0ca14bb44046680735b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
hmm, so let's suppose the conversation:
jon doesn't enjoy ro= ck climbing.
he does it anyway though.

how would I express "= it" in this context?

I see this being maybe "la jon na pra= mi (what word for enjoy?) lo nu rokci cpare .i ku'i la jy se go'i&q= uot;.=A0 Or maybe "se di'u".=A0 Neither of those look right t= hough.=A0 It feels like there should be a way for saying "put the refe= rent of the x2 place of some other utterance <HERE>"

a bad example, but what I mean is, sometimes you want to refer to somet= hing other than the relationship of the previous utterance.=A0 Is there som= e way to do like ".i mi ca prami lo nu mi se go'i" as in &quo= t;the referent of the x2 place of the last utterance" or "x3"= ; or "internal bridi" etc...

Or maybe, is there a way to be intentionally vague like "what I wa= s talking about back in that last utterance" thus leaving it up to the= listener to understand it from context?

- Luke Berge= n


On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:43 AM, Stela Se= lckiku <selckiku= @gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:01 AM, Luke Ber= gen <lukeabergen@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
> So the definition of "la'e" is "the referent of (in= direct pointer);".=A0 This
> seems like a very fuzzy kind of idea.=A0 If I say "mi gleki lo nu= do pu klama
> lo zarci" in the next utterance will "la'e di'u"= ; refer to my happiness, me,
> or the event of "do pu klama lo zarci"?=A0 Would the listene= r just have to
> pick this sort of thing up from context?


No it means something very specific. =A0Each bridi is a descrip= tion of a
relationship, in the case of "mi gleki lo nu do pu klama lo zarci"= ;,
the relationship of "gleki" between "mi" and "lo n= u li'o". =A0The
referent found by "la'e" therefore is the relationship itself= which
the "di'u" sentence is a description of.

First think about how "la'e" applies to something simpler, li= ke a
symbol or description of a symbol. =A0"la'e lu la nicte cadzu li&#= 39;u", the
referent of the piece of text "la nicte cadzu", is a book by la camgusmis. =A0If we're talking about the name "selckiku", and= we say
"la'e le cmene", the referent of the name, that would be the = selcme,
the person named, me. =A0Now, getting very close to using it with
"di'u", let's try it with a whole sentence: "la'= e lu mi gleki lo nu do
pu klama lo zarci li'u" -- the referent of that sentence, namely, = the
relationship of "gleki" asserted between "mi" and "= ;lo nu li'o". =A0(You
could also refer to a sentence indirectly, like "la'e le jufra&quo= t;,
referent of the sentence.)

So if you say "mi gleki", that statement as a whole can be consid= ered
a symbol, which refers to a referent (the actual fact of my
happiness). =A0If you then pick it up with "di'u", you are re= ferring
then to the statement considered as a symbol. =A0"la'e" turns= that into
a reference to the relationship which the statement/symbol refers to.

.i dei jufra .i di'u melbi jufra
& this.sentence sentence & previous.sentence beautiful sentence
This is a sentence. =A0That was a beautiful sentence.

.i dei jufra .i la'e di'u fatci gi'e nai jufra
& this.sentence sentence & referent.of previous.sentence fact and n= ot sentence
This is a sentence. =A0That sentence described a fact, not a sentence.

It's a rather abstract concept and I fear I've failed to explain it=
clearly, so someone else please take a swing too. =A0But, um,
incidentally, have you ever met "le nu go'i"? :) =A0Grab for = that first.

mu'o mi'e la selckiku




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