From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Apr 01 11:49:56 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:49:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lp5Vc-0006ru-2T for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:49:56 -0700 Received: from yx-out-1718.google.com ([74.125.44.156]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Lp5VR-0006qO-2Q for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:49:55 -0700 Received: by yx-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 6so125698yxn.46 for ; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:49:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/EWifcQ7B2Lc1YDpQofozSDq86zh3bKPF7AfCTyxvPg=; b=R1wEXlcQhHMIzhWDzeU3Adnrj9O2aF5vrW9K1ZK5tUW+x6uG+mEVlLz7GTu5T7wD/1 6Qc3G58tGNNCipMPTE0Bf8G1iEzXl8LoDI9rOkzmnUmFT0ojmrxSWVZ/qws7BI7pYuDu 2jJqkyea/sHyJK/DPOLZpWVk0x/3OSlYELfCU= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=YaYFedF722NRSXvNCDVgcUG/llx3QxRxejX5p0rXMdDljo9Q2poCp9v2+kfDL/PdOL +n5xbSpHoyvmX7cdC0XjR+uuhoBthDQQsJJOsgLKghJJG31ZOD3hxWAiywtb2lW/Wxuh V26arwRwc8TVC03UyKrV63JR29LOJPccvBrjs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.49.15 with SMTP id w15mr15157507ybw.220.1238611784092; Wed, 01 Apr 2009 11:49:44 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300904011052p6114099bk7cb7c2b51cd89576@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300903312101y8a22955vc5b7bed6e52e9ae6@mail.gmail.com> <425e4ac20903312243n4089d005nc34ea4edadd6f731@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300904010902o467aa98fv958a70256f3bf49@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60904011037i2b487956h3e250f57765d70e4@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300904011052p6114099bk7cb7c2b51cd89576@mail.gmail.com> Date: Wed, 1 Apr 2009 14:49:44 -0400 Message-ID: <96f789a60904011149o7816d089o1bc5fb2d4c3e339a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: la'e di'u From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1467 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:52 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > I see, so it is grammatical to refer to "se go'i", "te go'i", etc...? > Yes, but understand that by themselves, "se go'i", etc. are bridi, So I can say "loi rokci cu jdari .i mi se go'i " which means "Rocks are hard. I am a force to which rocks are unyielding." Because "go'i" and its family "carry along" not only the selbri, but all the arguments (which in this case is x1=loi rokci, selbri=jdari, so "go'i" translates to "loi rokci cu jdari" and "se go'i" is "se jdari loi rokci"). When you say "lo go'i" or "lo se go'i" you are saying "that which fills in the first (or second, respectively) place of that-previous-bridi", the same as "lo gerku" means "that which fills in the first place of ____ gerku ____" > .i mi klama lo zarci lo mi selxa'u la mein strit lo relxilma'e > > Now, "go'i", "se go'i", "te go'i", etc... could all be translated as "it" > where "it" refers to "myself", "the store", "my home", "main street", and > "the bike" from the previous utterance?  I didn't know go'i could be that > flexible. "LO go'i", etc. > > so if:   "la djan pu tcidu la nicte cadzu" then I could say "mi djica lo nu > mi tcidu la'e se go'i" for "I want to read that too"? No, you would just use "lo (or le) se go'i", not "la'e". You want to actually refer to the thing known by the name nicte cadzu, not whatever that thing is referring to (which might mean, for example, a book that was mentioned in the story, but you would be really be inviting misunderstanding....) But even better and simpler in this case would simply be "ri" or "ny". (The last sumti mentioned or the last sumti starting with N mentioned) > > which brings me to another question, how can you say "la luk bergen"?  My > name is made up of two cmene but how do people know that "bergen" falls > under the "la".  If a cmene has two names can the "ku" no longer be elided? > "la" can be followed by any number of cmevla (words ending in a consonant). It will all be considered one name. The ku is still elidable. It can be also followed by any brivla, but then it will almost certainly need to be terminated with a ku (or do'u, etc, depending on the context). > - Luke Bergen > > > On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 1:37 PM, Michael Turniansky > wrote: >> >> On Wed, Apr 1, 2009 at 12:02 PM, Luke Bergen >> wrote: >> > >> > hmm, so let's suppose the conversation: >> > jon doesn't enjoy rock climbing. >> > he does it anyway though. >> > >> > how would I express "it" in this context? >> > >> > I see this being maybe "la jon na prami (what word for enjoy?) lo nu >> > rokci >> > cpare .i ku'i la jy se go'i".  Or maybe "se di'u".  Neither of those >> > look >> > right though.  It feels like there should be a way for saying "put the >> > referent of the x2 place of some other utterance " >> >>  la jon na zanfri lo nu rokci cpare (or "cpare lo rokci" to be more >> precise) .iku'i jy  (NOT "la jy". "jy" is already a sumti by itself, >> "J") zukte lo se go'i >> >>  Let's go through this step by step: >> la jon <-- x1 of "nelci" >> na <-- "not",  negates the whole bridi >> zanfri <-- "enjoys" >> lo nu cpare lo rokci <- "rock climbing", the x2 of zanfri >> .i  <-- sentence break >> jy <-- "J", the x1 of zukte, refers back to "la jon" >> zukte <-- "does act" >> lo se go'i <-- the x2 of the previous bridi, which is now the x2 of >> this sentence >> >>           --gejyspa >> >> >> > >