From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Apr 03 06:11:54 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 03 Apr 2009 06:11:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LpjBZ-0003nz-Vr for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 03 Apr 2009 06:11:53 -0700 Received: from mail-qy0-f122.google.com ([209.85.221.122]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LpjBV-0003n8-HC for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 03 Apr 2009 06:11:53 -0700 Received: by qyk28 with SMTP id 28so2059992qyk.28 for ; Fri, 03 Apr 2009 06:11:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=mBuVlB/ierqWacXFinDEs0Tx8PubSsM1LPhfUri0pIw=; b=JnL1v4d3k3GnFOwTRwSfZCBeNaCODzRkSGx+8xXKSW75m3le/vijT6jbS68e7LHCEp SO48XgresT03hFTTzW7JuwHaSyjzrOSYQUFKIYgD6nPXRE8yi2Jd1BYvpP7P1zh11t+j PPT1ube0lOFGKG7hwrh7/+v2OoQB7dtvnN5jQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=d8Gc90nc9Nn1pSO2eMiTDLWySTR4pJMovZX/6JuaNrXELu2XB2xIuPbiP6AV6m3evL hh8ox+UO4m+h8v6r1msI/sAyRWu4v6kPGk3ctOtc0vmasEsHSRCE+N8BiLtT5rJ14kt0 HCDhMASClS6RmXT5/Pjib7vXvL7rg+CM69GVw= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.73.194 with SMTP id r2mr1556045vcj.76.1238764300857; Fri, 03 Apr 2009 06:11:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4de8c3930904030158s6901f5f5qb17b057933ee348@mail.gmail.com> References: <4de8c3930904030158s6901f5f5qb17b057933ee348@mail.gmail.com> Date: Fri, 3 Apr 2009 09:11:40 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300904030611g1e3d1c56kc6c69e3fafd50244@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Long consonants & long vowels From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016363107b31cf0fd0466a64a30 X-Spam-Score: 0.0 X-Spam-Score-Int: 0 X-Spam-Bar: / X-archive-position: 1473 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0016363107b31cf0fd0466a64a30 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the reason that they don't allow geminate consonants is that it would introduce some difficulty in hearing a distinction between "b" and "b:". And the LLG worked very hard to make all the lojban sounds as distinct as possible. As far as the long vs short vowels, I like that every letter in lojban corresponds to one and only one sound, even if it means that I can't use long "a" and "i" (the rest you can get through the vowels or diphthongs). Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this. - Luke Bergen On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:58 AM, tijlan wrote: > Does Lojban allow for geminate consonants ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geminate )? > > For example: > > meggy ('sour cherry' in Hungarian) > > kukka ('flower' in Finnish) > > rappa ('trumpet' in Japanese) > > These would traditionally be lojbanized as "meg", "kuka", and "rapa" > respectively, given that "gg", "kk", and "pp" are not permissible. But > gemination, basically pronouncing consonants long, is phonetically > different from such clusters where each consonant is pronounced > individually. Any thoughts on this? > > I have a rather experimental idea. In linguistics, there is a way to > transcribe "kukka", for instance, with the IPA length sign [=CB=90], givi= ng > [kuk=CB=90a]. The sign is fairly similar to colon (:), which has currentl= y > no official use in Lojban but is still covered by ASCII. So why not > lojbanizing geminate consonants with colon? The above examples would > become: "meg:", "kuk:a", "rap:a". > > By the same principle, we would be able to lojbanize long vowels ( > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_length ): > > h=C3=A1z [ha=CB=90z] ("house" in Hungarian) --> xa:z > > maa [ma=CB=90] ("earth" in Finnish) --> ma: > > t=C5=8Dky=C5=8D [to=CB=90kjo=CB=90] ("Tokyo" in Japanese) --> to:kio: > > oris [o=CB=90ri=CB=90s] ("mouth" in Latin) --> o:ri:s > > mu'o mi'e tijlan > > > > --0016363107b31cf0fd0466a64a30 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think the reason that they don't allow geminate consonants is that it= would introduce some difficulty in hearing a distinction between "b&q= uot; and "b:".=C2=A0 And the LLG worked very hard to make all the= lojban sounds as distinct as possible.=C2=A0

As far as the long vs short vowels, I like that every letter in lojban = corresponds to one and only one sound, even if it means that I can't us= e long "a" and "i" (the rest you can get through the vo= wels or diphthongs).

Correct me if I'm wrong on any of this.

- Luke Bergen


On Fri, Apr 3, 2009 at 4:58 AM, tijlan <= span dir=3D"ltr"><pascal.aki= hiko@gmail.com> wrote:
Does Lojban allow for geminate consonants (
http://= en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geminate )?

For example:

=C2=A0meggy ('sour cherry' in Hungarian)

=C2=A0kukka ('flower' in Finnish)

=C2=A0rappa ('trumpet' in Japanese)

These would traditionally be lojbanized as "meg", "kuka"= ;, and "rapa"
respectively, given that "gg", "kk", and "pp"= are not permissible. But
gemination, basically pronouncing consonants long, is phonetically
different from such clusters where each consonant is pronounced
individually. Any thoughts on this?

I have a rather experimental idea. In linguistics, there is a way to
transcribe "kukka", for instance, with the IPA length sign [=CB= =90], giving
[kuk=CB=90a]. The sign is fairly similar to colon (:), which has currently<= br> no official use in Lojban but is still covered by ASCII. So why not
lojbanizing geminate consonants with colon? The above examples would
become: "meg:", "kuk:a", "rap:a".

By the same principle, we would be able to lojbanize long vowels (
htt= p://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vowel_length ):

=C2=A0h=C3=A1z [ha=CB=90z] ("house" in Hungarian) --> xa:z

=C2=A0maa [ma=CB=90] ("earth" in Finnish) --> ma:

=C2=A0t=C5=8Dky=C5=8D [to=CB=90kjo=CB=90] ("Tokyo" in Japanese) -= -> to:kio:

=C2=A0oris [o=CB=90ri=CB=90s] ("mouth" in Latin) --> o:ri:s
mu'o mi'e tijlan




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