From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Apr 18 14:35:28 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:35:28 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LvIC8-0001Yq-CG for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:35:28 -0700 Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.92.146]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LvIC4-0001Yh-UZ for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:35:28 -0700 Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so479087qwc.58 for ; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:date:message-id:subject :from:to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=odntZABpR+BmyGzAo+on/YCpvJ6lXMkZAbfrY1eoIeU=; b=S/L9jjJV+F4Qps3FS1Zgnr2LPSOoXfSEbx0A5MzwVaf9Sh6mD1KmT7sFzq7o0O5Y0T /1XOjgYOqSN0Ut/3mDwKyU5ArccBzwgBJGMyA4oZYBEHpkZ+Qv9xewsU+oIPUQEnnMIg SGtsWdsONOqMfxqArtb8HZ93dEvNdoHGBypmY= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=IeHvsp5ehp6g736rUOqt1T6wX7oZvq2S1rSPsh/832XqjdUPVKIccuiHNytPigXJhO M8Dw/MBDp40dSKj7TVtvBv4XkEJivb3yAjpyuI7DAzOOa7GwXNlbRGRE/EfVcGyoBd+c SiPvkSTdf8RznpQeENfzRpSnCNr2tLvcONfBo= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.73.203 with SMTP id r11mr4439956vcj.61.1240090523540; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 14:35:23 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 17:35:23 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300904181435r70e35abdx57bd1d39e4a4174d@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] order of sumti effects their meaning? From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam_score: -2.6 X-Spam_score_int: -25 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: so I just read through section 5 of chapter16 of the refgram and am confused by this line: "since it is the order in which the variables appear that matters we can say ...". basically in "de poi gerku cu batci ro da poi prenu" "de poi gerku" is translated as "there-is-a-Y which is a dog" but in "ro da poi prenu cu se batci de poi gerku" the same string is translated as "_some_ Y which is a dog". [...] Content analysis details: (-2.6 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-archive-position: 1556 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners so I just read through section 5 of chapter16 of the refgram and am confused by this line: "since it is the order in which the variables appear that matters we can say ...". basically in "de poi gerku cu batci ro da poi prenu" "de poi gerku" is translated as "there-is-a-Y which is a dog" but in "ro da poi prenu cu se batci de poi gerku" the same string is translated as "_some_ Y which is a dog". This seems counter-intuitive to me and also very un-lojbanic. I was under the impression that "X cu Y" always means the same thing as "Y se X" except that maybe there is a change in emphasis. This is not the case when quantifying? - Luke Bergen