From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Apr 18 20:21:50 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:21:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LvNbJ-0005zO-TT for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:21:50 -0700 Received: from smtp.mail.umich.edu ([141.211.93.161] helo=tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LvNbG-0005zC-UO for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 18 Apr 2009 20:21:49 -0700 Received: FROM [192.168.123.100] (Unknown [67.194.201.56]) By tombraider.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 49EA988C.8E790.6015 ; Authuser alexjm; 18 Apr 2009 23:20:44 EDT Message-Id: <9B60A1E6-3C0B-4C47-ABB4-D3248AED0FA3@umich.edu> From: Alex Martini To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org In-Reply-To: <4de8c3930904030918g15df245axc022e827fd54d6fe@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v930.3) Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Long consonants & long vowels Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 23:20:43 -0400 References: <4de8c3930904030158s6901f5f5qb17b057933ee348@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300904030611g1e3d1c56kc6c69e3fafd50244@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930904030918g15df245axc022e827fd54d6fe@mail.gmail.com> X-Spam_score: -1.3 X-Spam_score_int: -12 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On Apr 3, 2009, at 12:18 PM, tijlan wrote: > 2009/4/3 Luke Bergen : >> I think the reason that they don't allow geminate consonants is >> that it >> would introduce some difficulty in hearing a distinction between >> "b" and >> "b:". And the LLG worked very hard to make all the lojban sounds as >> distinct as possible. > > The difference between [b] and [bː] is most significant when they are > used as an inbetween sound, which is how they are used mostly. > > [...] > >> As far as the long vs short vowels, I like that every letter in >> lojban >> corresponds to one and only one sound, even if it means that I >> can't use >> long "a" and "i" (the rest you can get through the vowels or >> diphthongs). > > I would consider ":" a marking-oriented letter like ",". It is useful > only when there is an adjacent letter to mark; it cannot be pronounced > alone. [...] Content analysis details: (-1.3 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] 1.3 AWL AWL: From: address is in the auto white-list X-archive-position: 1560 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: alexjm@umich.edu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Apr 3, 2009, at 12:18 PM, tijlan wrote: > 2009/4/3 Luke Bergen : >> I think the reason that they don't allow geminate consonants is >> that it >> would introduce some difficulty in hearing a distinction between >> "b" and >> "b:". And the LLG worked very hard to make all the lojban sounds as >> distinct as possible. > > The difference between [b] and [bː] is most significant when they are > used as an inbetween sound, which is how they are used mostly. > > [...] > >> As far as the long vs short vowels, I like that every letter in >> lojban >> corresponds to one and only one sound, even if it means that I >> can't use >> long "a" and "i" (the rest you can get through the vowels or >> diphthongs). > > I would consider ":" a marking-oriented letter like ",". It is useful > only when there is an adjacent letter to mark; it cannot be pronounced > alone. coi tijlan As I understand, the phonology of Lojban (the set of sounds it's made up of) is already fixed, so there's not much chance at adding geminate consonants. However, using the colon (:) as a sort of "the preceding sound ought to be pronounced long" marker, much like the comma (,) is a marker meaning "there ought to be a syllable break here", and capitalization is used as a marker that "this syllable ought to have stress accent" might be useful. They're optional (the parser ignores them), but they come in handy for conveying a little more information about the native pronunciation of a cmene. mu'o mi'e .aleks.