From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Fri Apr 24 17:45:43 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:45:43 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LxW1X-0004Fq-IS for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:45:43 -0700 Received: from cdptpa-omtalb.mail.rr.com ([75.180.132.122]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1LxW1T-0004Dt-70 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Fri, 24 Apr 2009 17:45:43 -0700 Received: from chausie ([71.75.215.96]) by cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com with ESMTP id <20090425004532856.TJEY9976@cdptpa-omta03.mail.rr.com> for ; Sat, 25 Apr 2009 00:45:32 +0000 Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by chausie (Postfix) with ESMTP id 33C521109 for ; Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:45:32 -0400 (EDT) From: Pierre Abbat To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: translation question Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2009 20:45:22 -0400 User-Agent: KMail/1.9.6 (enterprise 0.20070907.709405) References: <7f1d42860904241444i27263924g154baaa18f1721d1@mail.gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <7f1d42860904241444i27263924g154baaa18f1721d1@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: <200904242045.24215.phma@phma.optus.nu> X-archive-position: 1581 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: phma@phma.optus.nu Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Friday 24 April 2009 17:44:24 Ryan Leach wrote: > 1. The apple is red le plise cu xunre > 2. It is John's apple There's no one translation that sounds most natural for this. It depends on whether the apple is at a small, medium, or large distance from speaker and listener (if they are together) or close to speaker, listener, or neither (if not), whether the apple has been previously mentioned, and how you want to put the sentence together. Among the possibilities are: ti du le la djan. plise ko'a me la djan. moi plise ta ne la djan. plise me le la djan. plise Before you give up, though, try this question: what's the most natural English translation of "le xunre cu plise"? > 3. I give John the apple mi dunda le plise la djan. > 4. We want to give him the apple Lojban has three words for "we": "mi'a", "ma'a", and "mi'o"; two of which are the inclusive/exclusive distinction (look up "clusivity" on Wikipedia and there's a link to the article in Lojban). In addition "mi" can be used for "we", as if all of us were speaking as one. mi'o djica lo nu dunda le plise ko'a This does not imply that we are the ones who give the apple. If he were over there, I'd say "ta" instead of "ko'a", unless I'd already called something else "ta" and it were confusing. > 5. He gives it to John fo'a dunda ko'a la djan. "fo'a" and "ko'a" belong to a set of ten pronouns which are arbitrarily assigned to things. They don't distinguish gender. > 6. She gives it to him fo'o dunda ti ko'e See above. > le plise cu xunre .i le la djan plise .i mi dunda le plise la djan .i > ma'a djica cu dunda le plise le nanmu .i le nanmu dunda zo'e la djan > .i le ninmu dunda zo'e le nanmu "le la djan. plise" is a bricau jufra. You'd normally use it to answer a question. "ma'a djica cu dunda" is ungrammatical; did you mean "co"? "le nanmu" isn't a pronoun, but as Lojban doesn't have gendered pronouns, you may want to use it where in English you'd say "he". "zo'e" doesn't mean "it"; it leaves a place unfilled, and is normally said only when the place would otherwise be filled by "ke'a" or "ce'u" (the relative pronoun and something similar used in abstractions). > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Negative Translation > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > le plise cu na xunre .i la djan na ponse le plise .i mi na dunda le > plise la djan .i ma'a na djica cu dunda le plise ne nanmu .i le nanmu > na dunda zo'e la djan .i le ninmu na dunda zo'e le nanmu > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Past tense translation > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > le plise pu xunre .i la djan pu ponse le plise .i mi pu dunda le plise > la djan .i ma'a pu djica cu dunda le plise le nanmu .i le nanmu pu > dunda zo'e la djan .i le ninmu pu dunda zo'e le nanmu > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > future tense translation > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > le plise ba xunre .i la djan ba ponse le plise .i mi ba dunda le plise > la djan .i ma'a ba djica cu dunda le plise le nanmu .i le nanmu ba > dunda zo'e la djan .i le ninmu ba dunda zo'e le nanmu All the negative, past, and future sentences are OK if their present positives are. "la djan. cu ponse le plise" means "John owns the apple", which is different from "It is John's apple". > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > tranlated as a yes no question > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > xu le plise cu xunre .i xu la djan ponse le plise .i xu mi dunda le > plise la djan .i xu ma'a djica cu dunda le plise le nanmu .i xu le > nanmu dunda zo'e la djan .i xu le ninmu dunda zo'e le nanmu You can also say "le la djan. xu plise", which means "John's apple?" i.e. "I know it's an apple, but is it John's?". You can't answer that with "go'i" because claxu lo bridi. You can say just "naku" or "ja'aku" but I'm not sure whether it's a proper answer to that fragment. > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - > Translated as a 'ma' question- incomplete > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - > > ma cu xunre (what is red?) Or just "ma xunre". > ma cu ponse le plise (whose apple is it?) > La djan ponse ma (John owns what?) > mi dunda ma la djan (I give what to john?) > mi dunda le plise ma (I give the apple to whom?) > ma'a djica cu dunda ma le nanmu (we all want to give what to her?) "le nanmu" is "the man". > ma'a djica cu dunda le plise ma (we all want to give the apple to whom?) > ma dunda zo'e la djan (Who gave it to john?) Pierre