From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jun 02 10:30:05 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:30:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MBXoK-0002U3-OY for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:30:05 -0700 Received: from mail-px0-f116.google.com ([209.85.216.116]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MBXoF-0002RT-9w for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:30:03 -0700 Received: by pxi14 with SMTP id 14so31165pxi.28 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:29:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AiqHtWCvckbD5cg+2ISBbL0TL/wOYbDkqXnOO8dEL3A=; b=i0/5fxtOFvxmv48A8G+S2IxrEPSjTVVfuSJYVNES78MV+qGFC/LIymc+nyHH1hzBsv RXoGqNWGyhQ6Prc+8FYzO9N/d6Cxk8SQoET2XWHtCVmjt9BjYtKq1J2pzv0VapkS7xtl 7VQ3Tu5VXpojiyBDxvVutXFAJNFHpyNfrj5Bg= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=nJeEJ3bV5PzYZCNET+o3kU+9L3aVrXuDhN9zHIYTYJLaGe6CFa1rlEW5X7eV0Hrb2B 4VUpftXNpKZsgaH3lvpc8u5Oh1n1YFejAg/41aXtprhuPBo9YLgip/rxOvnelIe0tjYm eoEn1/9K50cZQMonWqW15ZByu8dRuPBqiZ0Wk= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.14.18 with SMTP id 18mr2624217wfn.35.1243963373382; Tue, 02 Jun 2009 10:22:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4de8c3930906020942p4d14e58at3ebe43fb0ed55593@mail.gmail.com> References: <73982fe70905311909ke27958eo20e9a882a88ad4c3@mail.gmail.com> <8900cc410906010103p1d2721e4rcdf94369983d19e3@mail.gmail.com> <73982fe70906020712h236e8c5rf43c18ca4474b19e@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930906020942p4d14e58at3ebe43fb0ed55593@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 2 Jun 2009 14:22:53 -0300 Message-ID: <73982fe70906021022s4b714c5bva98cb1869a01a49e@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Pronunciation: a major problem in spreading lojban From: Leonardo Castro To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 1743 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: leolucas1980@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners > Another problem for them is telling "r" from "l". Like the Korean > language, the orthography doesn't distinguish between the alveolar Maybe that's why Toki Pona has no "r": "Toki Pona has nine consonants (/p, t, k, s, m, n, l, j, w/) and five vowels (/a, e, i, o, u/)." Wikipedia I have expressed my wish of getting a simple phonotactic system which preserves word breaking detection to the linguist Justin B. Rye. http://www.xibalba.demon.co.uk/jbr/ He suggested me the following: All morphemes must: 1) start with a consonant; 2) end with a CV syllable; 3) contain no CVCV sequences (CVCV is always CV+CV). Otherwise, syllables are (C)V(n). "Illegal morphemes include "ionko", "kanten", "siahane" etcetera; legal ones include "kante", "naupu", "lionko", "toadenki", "sa", "laimeohe", "dunna", etcetera. I'd probably also say: all monosyllables are grammatical markers, and exclamations (like "aha!") are never valid morphemes." Well, it's a nice system, but I would also prohibit the encounters /nm/, /nn/ and all sort of "double letter". Probably I would exclude the voiced consonants too. So, I doubt that any people would say that it's hard to pronounce. We could also consider that some languages have only three vowels (usually "u", "i" and "a"), but a loglan or auxlan with less than five vowels would be absurdly limited. 2009/6/2 tijlan : > 2009/6/2 Leonardo Castro : >>> Also, I think that languages (almost) without consonant clusters are rather >>> rare. The only famous examples I know, are Japanese and Chinese (are there >> >> If you consider semivowels and nasals as consonants, Japanese does >> have some consonant clusters. > > Also, > >  Mite simatta. = .u'u (mi) ba'o viska = (I) have (wrongfully) seen (this/that). > > can become > >  Mit's'atta. ("t's'a" would sound almost the same as "tca" in Lojban) > > This kind of shortening words by leaving out vowels (thus potentially > forming consonant clusters) is pretty common in everyday Japanese. But > this is done unconsciously. Consciously pronouncing consonant clusters > still proves difficult for most native speakers of Japanese. > > Another problem for them is telling "r" from "l". Like the Korean > language, the orthography doesn't distinguish between the alveolar > approximant and the alveolar *lateral* approximant, or the alveolar > trill/tap/flap and the alveolar *lateral* flap (although the > distinction is made again unconsciously to some extent in their actual > pronunciation). > > tijlan > > > >