From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Jun 03 14:57:45 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:57:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MBySu-0006g0-Hm for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:57:44 -0700 Received: from ol.freeshell.org ([192.94.73.20] helo=sdf.lonestar.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MBySp-0006eb-P0 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 03 Jun 2009 14:57:43 -0700 Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:jwodder@iceland.freeshell.org [192.94.73.5]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.13.8) with ESMTP id n53LvXQG008569 for ; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:57:34 GMT Received: (from jwodder@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.12.8/Submit) id n53LvXTi017304 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:57:33 GMT Date: Wed, 3 Jun 2009 21:57:33 +0000 From: Minimiscience To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Pronunciation: a major problem in spreading lojban Message-ID: <20090603215731.GA6804@sdf.lonestar.org> References: <73982fe70905311909ke27958eo20e9a882a88ad4c3@mail.gmail.com> <8900cc410906010103p1d2721e4rcdf94369983d19e3@mail.gmail.com> <73982fe70906020712h236e8c5rf43c18ca4474b19e@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930906020942p4d14e58at3ebe43fb0ed55593@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Organization: SDF Public Access UNIX System User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.19 (2009-01-05) Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by sdf.lonestar.org id n53LvXQG008569 X-archive-position: 1755 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners de'i li 02 pi'e 06 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Ivo Doko .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > I would also like to add to this discussion that there are number of > languages in which pronunciation of consonant clusters is resolved > with schwa, although it's unconscious and, in most languages, the > presence of schwa is not represented in the orthography. .skamyxatra Lojban allows one to use any non-Lojbanic vowel between consonants as a "consonant buffer," which only exists for ease of pronunciation and has no other effect on the text. However, as Lojban already uses the schwa for 'y', different vowels have to used for buffering; the CLL recommends [ɪ], among others. See section 3.8 of *The Complete Lojban Language* for more information. > For example, in Croatian, [r] (alveolar trill) is said to be a > consonant if it's not in-between two other consonants, in which case > it's treated as a vowel. What actually happens is that [r] itself does > not magically transform into a vowel when it comes in-between two > other consonants, but instead a schwa is pronounced before or even at > the same time as the alveolar trill. How is that different from a syllabic R (IPA [r̩]), which Lojban also has? mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. -- noda makfa bu'u le vi munje