From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Tue Jun 23 10:42:52 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:42:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MJA1D-00040E-Bg for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:42:51 -0700 Received: from qw-out-1920.google.com ([74.125.92.150]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MJA15-0003zT-2q for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:42:51 -0700 Received: by qw-out-1920.google.com with SMTP id 5so132827qwc.58 for ; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:42:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=reaRvtEGE3BdMoUKVEiliZP6JUlwWaZFj8qUhrMYln0=; b=n6uxCq9lL7yftngATqc0woNWk6J3/A8NQ/plmfl4VFqNo5QtAQFFI88lnzngcdtn5L HM91vkDV1cAPmiWREJbjw6W0lGHMW0tZk/C5OkndyTPIF6gJMdRzmB35cZmgisF6sgWD /lt5reIAPEPosflMbDy+4mWhOPZt3ASSKYMF4= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=m15BmInr4hjsL9lXMk8BKh+2RYIAasF/BCyrMybjyKsc6T9SjuWxXJWlfsrtAxziFo VyZpwZoKem6Hx4a4KxmTuwQ70Q+S2TNuWqdvCYZJr/V9OIxJ0i28sdO/3J+ULxh5MxVo UEChLe5rzxIEdOyw4VhPx6C5ykBH8waT32DIE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.45.80 with SMTP id d16mr540178vcf.93.1245778960958; Tue, 23 Jun 2009 10:42:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96f789a60906231036m593c7461y76e1ad140af242da@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300906230813u2c4149dbkf718e143387ae799@mail.gmail.com> <200906231303.51825.phma@phma.optus.nu> <5715b9300906231014l3dbadb73v4a291df1fe3fe0fa@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60906231036m593c7461y76e1ad140af242da@mail.gmail.com> Date: Tue, 23 Jun 2009 13:42:40 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300906231042s3ec970c7tab6c09b1248ecd1a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: lu preti li'u From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001485eb041e6fc75b046d0784a7 X-archive-position: 1881 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --001485eb041e6fc75b046d0784a7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit .ua mi jimpe .i ki'e - Luke Bergen On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Michael Turniansky wrote: > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Luke Bergen > wrote: > > > > So {lu ... li'u} works like go'i in terms of how much it delimits. I had > just read in CLL that with {go'i} {mi} refers to an idea and is not quoted > verbatim. i.e. > > A: mi barda > > B: .i go'i > > > > B is saying "yes, you are big", the word {mi} is not brought along but > the concept itself is. So lu .. li'u works the same? > > Not exactly the same, but it must be understood in the context of > the quote, not the surrounding quoted material. Similarly, if > character says "ri...", you count backwards from what was previously > SAID by a character, not whatever the surrounding text might be. > > > > > Also, (somewhat related) in la alis. cizra je cinri zukte vi le > selmacygu'e I found this: > > {lu ji'a ma prali sei la alis pensi fi lo cukta poi vasru no pixra ja > nuncasnu li'u} > > How does one know when the "sei" stops and the main bridi continues? Why > does the {fi} attach to the main bridi and not to pensi (other than the fact > that pensi has no x3)? > > Chapter 19, section 12 of the grammar: > > > > The grammar of the bridi following ``sei'' has an unusual limitation: the > sumti must either all precede the selbri, or must be glued into the selbri > with ``be'' and ``bei'': > > > > 12.5) la frank. prami sei gleki be fa la suzn. la djein. > > > > Frank loves (Susan is happy) Jane. > > > > This restriction allows the terminator cmavo ``se'u'' to almost always be > elided. > > --gejyspa > > > > > On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Pierre Abbat > wrote: > >> > >> On Tuesday 23 June 2009 11:13:05 Luke Bergen wrote: > >> > So, I have a couple of questions about lu ... li'u that I haven't > found in > >> > the CLL yet. > >> > > >> > A: lo gerku goi ko'a cu barda > >> > B: .i la saimon cusku lu ko'a cu xunre li'u > >> > > >> > Now, does the {ko'a} in the quote that B is referring to refer to "lo > >> > gerku" or potentially something else entirely? Or does the presence > of a > >> > {ko'a} without a {goi} assignment within that quote make the entire > quote > >> > ungrammatical. > >> > >> "ko'a" in the second sentence refers to something in Simon's utterance, > three > >> words of which are quoted here. Unless you're playing Simon Says, in > which > >> case the second sentence is ignored because it contains "ko'a" instead > >> of "ko". The presence of "ko'a" without "goi" is not ungrammatical; it > is > >> merely semantically unclear. The song "le cmalu bloti" uses it; it is up > to > >> the listener to figure out that ko'a is the crew as a whole, or the crew > >> minus the boy, and ko'e is the boy. > >> > >> If B had said "la saimon. cusku le sedu'u ko'a xunre", though, "ko'a" > would > >> refer to lo gerku. > >> > >> > Furthermore, if we have: > >> > > >> > A: la saimon cusku lu mi barda li'u > >> > > >> > is "mi" saimon or the speaker "A"? > >> > >> "mi" refers to "la saimon". > >> > >> Pierre > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > --001485eb041e6fc75b046d0784a7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .ua mi jimpe .i ki'e

- Luke Bergen


On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:36 PM, Michael= Turniansky <= mturniansky@gmail.com> wrote:
On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:14 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> So {lu ... li'u} works like go'i in terms of how much it delim= its. =A0I had just read in CLL that with {go'i} {mi} refers to an idea = and is not quoted verbatim. =A0i.e.
> A: mi barda
> B: .i go'i
>
> B is saying "yes, you are big", the word {mi} is not brought= along but the concept itself is. =A0So lu .. li'u works the same?

=A0 Not exactly the same, but it must be understood in the context o= f
the quote, not the surrounding quoted material. =A0Similarly, if
character says "ri...", you count backwards from what was previou= sly
SAID by a character, not whatever the surrounding text might be.

>
> Also, (somewhat related) in la alis. cizra je cinri zukte vi le selmac= ygu'e I found this:
> {lu ji'a ma prali sei la alis pensi fi lo cukta poi vasru no pixra= ja nuncasnu li'u}
> How does one know when the "sei" stops and the main bridi co= ntinues? =A0Why does the {fi} attach to the main bridi and not to pensi (ot= her than the fact that pensi has no x3)?

Chapter 19, section 12 of the grammar:
>
> The grammar of the bridi following ``sei'' has an unusual limi= tation: the sumti must either all precede the selbri, or must be glued into= the selbri with ``be'' and ``bei'':
>
> 12.5) =A0 =A0la frank. prami sei gleki be fa la suzn. la djein.
>
> =A0 =A0Frank loves (Susan is happy) Jane.
>
> This restriction allows the terminator cmavo ``se'u'' to a= lmost always be elided.

=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 --gejyspa

>
> On Tue, Jun 23, 2009 at 1:03 PM, Pierre Abbat <phma@phma.optus.nu> wrote:
>>
>> On Tuesday 23 June 2009 11:13:05 Luke Bergen wrote:
>> > So, I have a couple of questions about lu ... li'u that I= haven't found in
>> > the CLL yet.
>> >
>> > A: lo gerku goi ko'a cu barda
>> > B: .i la saimon cusku lu ko'a cu xunre li'u
>> >
>> > Now, does the {ko'a} in the quote that B is referring to = refer to "lo
>> > gerku" or potentially something else entirely? =A0Or doe= s the presence of a
>> > {ko'a} without a {goi} assignment within that quote make = the entire quote
>> > ungrammatical.
>>
>> "ko'a" in the second sentence refers to something in= Simon's utterance, three
>> words of which are quoted here. Unless you're playing Simon Sa= ys, in which
>> case the second sentence is ignored because it contains "ko&#= 39;a" instead
>> of "ko". The presence of "ko'a" without &q= uot;goi" is not ungrammatical; it is
>> merely semantically unclear. The song "le cmalu bloti" u= ses it; it is up to
>> the listener to figure out that ko'a is the crew as a whole, o= r the crew
>> minus the boy, and ko'e is the boy.
>>
>> If B had said "la saimon. cusku le sedu'u ko'a xunre&= quot;, though, "ko'a" would
>> refer to lo gerku.
>>
>> > Furthermore, if we have:
>> >
>> > A: la saimon cusku lu mi barda li'u
>> >
>> > is "mi" saimon or the speaker "A"?
>>
>> "mi" refers to "la saimon".
>>
>> Pierre
>>
>>
>>
>




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