From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Jun 29 20:13:46 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:13:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MLTn0-00077O-NY for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:13:46 -0700 Received: from mail-ew0-f211.google.com ([209.85.219.211]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MLTmx-00076m-2p for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:13:46 -0700 Received: by ewy7 with SMTP id 7so5333615ewy.34 for ; Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:13:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=ZOBWIURTNQlLMm+WXhqL/a0VqGIGh0Q7DwSNLD1Wiko=; b=evWlSsl27EpPHw0fb95q4vlEy280aoQN+enwYrHtQCavYV4CshOGPh/jSOmvmrnTlN hdtAQ3koNkXNn+DzFh1kb7XOJJgR51FJb/Nr85YbkP96Z5T8QMEyexrSBqiQsLHEbHbq P1vJqAuZi9pNwpBCBCNW3+0r4g+rLRhOOa7yw= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=paMmkFWX+u+V+EosbTNJPYgqpPdGxeSJ600WOrvbsBbZSdV36Ze/7ZGjziyOVqZwBn 0orjjmZzICQxwNH3WHM5NJYF+LkfS3s5K0VBxE+ixcxtlqb8omVv/bj7LQ1NTVeQf3Q7 1udx94383+V6ffL691WlncXeBrKF2KEnCuXI0= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.53.12 with SMTP id f12mr2246922wec.72.1246331616548; Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:13:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <425e4ac20906281807r5f3df10fud1ff3cd9eca57a87@mail.gmail.com> References: <425e4ac20906281807r5f3df10fud1ff3cd9eca57a87@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 23:13:36 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: xorlo quanitifiers From: Sam Bader To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6daa7d346e0c2046d88318e X-archive-position: 1902 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: awesomeegghead@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --0016e6daa7d346e0c2046d88318e Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ki'e selckiku to .i'o mi pu djisku zo ku'i toi mi nanca li paxa seni'i lo nu mi ckule tadni ku gi'e nanmu gi'e xabju la nort.karolinas. .i mi cilre la lojban. mu'i lo nu ly. menli se zanfri .i lo nu mi ru'inai cilre .ui sepi'o la'o gy. Lojban for Beginners gy. .e la'o gy. The Lojban Reference Grammar gy. cu masti li ji'i ci .i teti'u la redjed. mi co'a gidva loi ji'i cimu pendo lo nu tadni la lojban. kei vi le crisa ginka poi mi zvati ku to ri du la'o ty. NC Governor's School ty. toi .iseki'ubo la'a lo nu mi reisku fi lo mriste cu ba cafne .uenai.ui ni'o mi ze'epu noroi tavla vi la .irc. ki'u lo nu mi ca masno lo nu jbobau tavla .i mu'a mi finti le pamoi samxa'a be do ze'a so'a lo pa cacra .iku'i .ui mi zenba lo ka stati .iseni'ibo ze'epu mi do na'e me la .irc. slabu .iku'i mi do co'e ba'o lo nu mi co'u tcidu la'o gy. The Lojban Reference Grammar gy. .i ta'onai .ua mi ca jimpe ki'e selckiku mu'o mi'e .semiul. On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Sam Bader > wrote: > > > > [In short, how do you know whether to use an inner or an outer quantifier > on > > a "lo" sumti?] > > > .ui .i'i coi fi'i la .semiul. > > > This is how I understand it: The inner number says how many referents > you are talking about, "le ci plise" = the three apples I have in > mind. The outer number shows how many of the referents do the thing > you're saying they do, "re le plise cu xunre" = two of the apples are > red. Note that if you only quantify on one side or the other, this is > generally a distinction without a difference! "le re plise" is two > apples you have in mind, and "re le plise" is out of the apples you > have in mind, two of them, so as you can see it's still just two > apples, either way. The distinction is more relevant when both are > used, as in "re le ci plise cu xunre" = two of the three apples are > red. > > As I understand xorlo, there is very little difference in how the > quantifiers work with "lo" vs "le". I never understood why once upon > a time "lo ci plise" would reduce the whole universe to three apples, > and thankfully one is rarely accosted by that idea these days. The > distinction most people understand between "lo" and "le" now is more > about definiteness or particularness-- "le" certainly means that you > have in mind some particular referent, and "lo" may mean that the > referent is undetermined, inspecific, or even generic or general. > > > srana le do jboselsku .i certu za'a .i do pau ze'a ma cilre .i va'i ca > ma do co'a cilre .i do jinvi le du'u do cnino .i do sutcli .o'a dai > ni'i .i mi facki fi so'u po'o nu srera .i do pilno zo ki'u gi'e djisku > .ia zo ku'i .i mi lo simsa nu srera cu cafne gasnu .i simsa valsi > > ni'o ko zmadu jbobau bo tavla .au fi do noi na'e slabu mi .i mu'a do > ma xabju .i mi merko gi'e xabju la .vermont. .i mi nanmu .i mi nanca > li re so .i mi ze'u jbopre .i jbobau .iu .i .ua ru'e xu mi pu te cusku > fi do fo la .irc. .i la .irc. cu frica be le mriste be'o munje pe'a .i > frica ke tavla selckaji .i ta'o nai xu do mi me la .irc. slabu je'u .i > .a'o ca'o jbopre doi jbopre > > mu'o .semiul. mi'e la selckiku > > > > --0016e6daa7d346e0c2046d88318e Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ki'e selckiku to .i'o mi pu djisku zo ku'i toi
mi nanca li p= axa seni'i lo nu mi ckule tadni ku gi'e nanmu gi'e xabju la nor= t.karolinas. .i mi cilre la lojban. mu'i lo nu ly. menli se zanfri .i l= o nu mi ru'inai cilre .ui sepi'o la'o gy. Lojban for Beginners = gy. .e la'o gy. The Lojban Reference Grammar gy. cu masti li ji'i c= i .i teti'u la redjed. mi co'a gidva loi ji'i cimu pendo lo nu = tadni la lojban. kei vi le crisa ginka poi mi zvati ku to ri du la'o ty= . NC Governor's School ty. toi .iseki'ubo la'a lo nu mi reisku = fi lo mriste cu ba cafne .uenai.ui
ni'o mi ze'epu noroi tavla vi la .irc. ki'u lo nu mi ca masno l= o nu jbobau tavla .i mu'a mi finti le pamoi samxa'a be do ze'a = so'a lo pa cacra .iku'i .ui mi zenba lo ka stati .iseni'ibo ze&= #39;epu mi do na'e me la .irc. slabu .iku'i mi do co'e ba'o= lo nu mi co'u tcidu la'o gy. The Lojban Reference Grammar gy.
.i ta'onai .ua mi ca jimpe ki'e selckiku
mu'o mi'e .semi= ul.

On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Stel= a Selckiku <selc= kiku@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, Jun 28, 2009 at 5:11 PM, Sam Bader<awesomeegghead@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> [In short, how do you know whether to use an inner or an outer quantif= ier on
> a "lo" sumti?]


.ui .i'i coi fi'i la .semiul.


This is how I understand it: The inner number says how many referents
you are talking about, "le ci plise" =3D the three apples I have = in
mind. =A0The outer number shows how many of the referents do the thing
you're saying they do, "re le plise cu xunre" =3D two of the = apples are
red. =A0Note that if you only quantify on one side or the other, this is generally a distinction without a difference! =A0"le re plise" is= two
apples you have in mind, and "re le plise" is out of the apples y= ou
have in mind, two of them, so as you can see it's still just two
apples, either way. =A0The distinction is more relevant when both are
used, as in "re le ci plise cu xunre" =3D two of the three apples= are
red.

As I understand xorlo, there is very little difference in how the
quantifiers work with "lo" vs "le". =A0I never understo= od why once upon
a time "lo ci plise" would reduce the whole universe to three app= les,
and thankfully one is rarely accosted by that idea these days. =A0The
distinction most people understand between "lo" and "le"= ; now is more
about definiteness or particularness-- "le" certainly means that = you
have in mind some particular referent, and "lo" may mean that the=
referent is undetermined, inspecific, or even generic or general.


srana le do jboselsku .i certu za'a .i do pau ze'a ma cilre .i va&#= 39;i ca
ma do co'a cilre .i do jinvi le du'u do cnino .i do sutcli .o'a= dai
ni'i .i mi facki fi so'u po'o nu srera .i do pilno zo ki'u = gi'e djisku
.ia zo ku'i .i mi lo simsa nu srera cu cafne gasnu .i simsa valsi

ni'o ko zmadu jbobau bo tavla .au fi do noi na'e slabu mi .i mu'= ;a do
ma xabju .i mi merko gi'e xabju la .vermont. .i mi nanmu .i mi nanca li re so .i mi ze'u jbopre .i jbobau .iu .i .ua ru'e xu mi pu te cu= sku
fi do fo la .irc. .i la .irc. cu frica be le mriste be'o munje pe'a= .i
frica ke tavla selckaji .i ta'o nai xu do mi me la .irc. slabu je'u= .i
.a'o ca'o jbopre doi jbopre

mu'o .semiul. mi'e la selckiku




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