From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Aug 22 21:35:24 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:35:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mf4nc-0002Y9-C8 for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:35:24 -0700 Received: from mail-iw0-f199.google.com ([209.85.223.199]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mf4nZ-0002Xu-Lb for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:35:24 -0700 Received: by iwn37 with SMTP id 37so628446iwn.28 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:35:15 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=y+ndFR6tsEMWXEobTPUbB6f80G4YAK0D3mAq/w80a1A=; b=ngcUU8jdq6e8jsZDvYo9+s6OCWMlIYqE8JuaaS/WapbDEHruUMQ+b7ZxDU+caGNgyg VFHuu9iui06lpfuskFvcnrs5myXbNvwBakNaWGWYlesmQK8OF8iecrhzs+Xo+W8KBceR H0wi6VVs755ijCvtamUMQu1wwqGJDbinZNxpk= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=aDX4BlzLgr1bOIflaUZftLDfhABYVK+P7IkJBfKzfAq/Mgn6MzAS7NjLJeWRcl630C GwCQsVa+xtFqtm8QNOHmMcdgKvR9PeVvLQL86mEfgIKMU3enKI4tP7R/ZoGUgpq1PCwo 76/VAQrW20L/d42e4K+8E0ABKz8AxYq+QyfOE= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.11.130 with SMTP id t2mr1491407ibt.51.1251002115613; Sat, 22 Aug 2009 21:35:15 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300908221250w6ee9da23r471adf911ff312df@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090821225617.GA1082@sdf.lonestar.org> <5a3750120908220037l2ea17eb1ue2dc1e3d9ce2cf65@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930908220408g21752c12yd44abd703bae9cc5@mail.gmail.com> <5a3750120908221037u6e49bec7ra8316c82dbbf5c03@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930908221226n38e5fbf0h1554794765d48876@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300908221250w6ee9da23r471adf911ff312df@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 00:35:15 -0400 Message-ID: <425e4ac20908222135j51851de3y35792138d489ac2c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: "The pen is mightier than the sword." From: Stela Selckiku To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > my lojban is nowhere near good enough to be able to understand discussion > about lojban in lojban. Could someone give me a brief synopsis of what's > being said here: I gather that it's a minor disagreement having something > to do with stress/emphasis of sumti? [...] Content analysis details: (0.5 points, 5.0 required) pts rule name description ---- ---------------------- -------------------------------------------------- 3.1 SUBJECT_FUZZY_PENIS Attempt to obfuscate words in Subject: -2.6 BAYES_00 BODY: Bayesian spam probability is 0 to 1% [score: 0.0000] X-archive-position: 2092 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: selckiku@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > my lojban is nowhere near good enough to be able to understand discussion > about lojban in lojban.  Could someone give me a brief synopsis of what's > being said here:  I gather that it's a minor disagreement having something > to do with stress/emphasis of sumti? .ui sai Lojban is making good progress! I remember when I first joined the Lojban list, I think it was a bit more than a decade ago now, I wondered why all the debates about Lojban's grammar were in English. I felt that they would be much clearer in Lojban. And now we're finally to the point where discussion of Lojban in Lojban is common, so common that it's always even spilling over into when we're supposed to be teaching newbies! :> The topic is the difference in status between a sumti which takes one of the proper places of a selbri, as x1, x2, etc., vs one which is in a tacked-on BAI place. I would say that it's not so much a difference of emphasis as of specificity. Something in a numbered, basic place has a definite, conventional relationship to the activity, but something tagged with a BAI or a fi'o phrase has a certain vagueness to its relationship. I heard someone on IRC recently describe "broda fi'o brode ku" as being parallel with "brode broda", and I would agree with that; something in a BAI or fi'o place is in the same vagueness of relationship to the selbri as something attached to a seltau (se tanru, the modifier, the first part). So for instance in the translation we're discussing, "lo xarci cu vlipa mau lo pinsi", the sumti "lo xarci" is in the x1 place and so it is clearly in the role of being powerful. The other sumti though, "lo pinsi", is in a BAI place created by the tag "mau", zmadu, more. All we know about the pencil is its more-ness, not specifically what the relationship is between its more-ness and the power discussed in the selbri (though there is certainly some relationship). I would say it's very similar to the vagueness you'd get if you said "lo pinsi cu zmadu cei broda" (a pencil is more, which we'll call broda) and then said "lo xarci cu broda vlipa". The moreness of the pencil is involved somehow with the relationship, but it's not said how. In context, though, it's plain to see what the relationship is, and what's meant. In my opinion it's a perfectly clear and useful way of translating the phrase. Lojban is just very specific about its vagueness. mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o