From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Aug 22 23:24:33 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 22 Aug 2009 23:24:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mf6VF-0001Te-7d for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 22 Aug 2009 23:24:33 -0700 Received: from mail-vw0-f179.google.com ([209.85.212.179]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mf6VC-0001SU-L3 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 22 Aug 2009 23:24:33 -0700 Received: by vws9 with SMTP id 9so1316477vws.25 for ; Sat, 22 Aug 2009 23:24:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=HGrb/KlTxT/jjKls+tuAtioPZssBbLaeHGY/cuLAMcU=; b=wwhYHUxaDs+7bQUg4rh3DGdqYu8NEwqeRpktNOwfJMQRwGYAuM9YrjSWhR6eQxd7OV 6wnr9l9IUyt2LZl1xFkOZyqEQITBy8airKs8y7pUeoz6cq5tZysnTDzUSCfXwpwSRbij YD3Ptwdf0QvR/wU3i+reUhiTRUFXrPv3AMYYI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=ONT2hLqDlpcISy7jatRrbjgOQGS4YCSxPnhL/h5zUpcchoW9rpHFIvrssy31clWL7y rQdt/Q0UZpdpCwoOJGNADSD0ouBmfXwrTngdEHBYVoidBOtSuJYYywPNzJ70xRv/kk8n kExG7KUyjMQriXWy8cAPj5Jh2wCKAnZ5Uyf0o= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.6.78 with SMTP id 14mr3654435vcy.52.1251008664329; Sat, 22 Aug 2009 23:24:24 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <425e4ac20908222135j51851de3y35792138d489ac2c@mail.gmail.com> References: <20090821225617.GA1082@sdf.lonestar.org> <5a3750120908220037l2ea17eb1ue2dc1e3d9ce2cf65@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930908220408g21752c12yd44abd703bae9cc5@mail.gmail.com> <5a3750120908221037u6e49bec7ra8316c82dbbf5c03@mail.gmail.com> <4de8c3930908221226n38e5fbf0h1554794765d48876@mail.gmail.com> <5715b9300908221250w6ee9da23r471adf911ff312df@mail.gmail.com> <425e4ac20908222135j51851de3y35792138d489ac2c@mail.gmail.com> Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2009 02:24:24 -0400 Message-ID: <5715b9300908222324i3310ffebsd09f0f003615e241@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: "The pen is mightier than the sword." From: Luke Bergen To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00163646d10e0c5eb30471c927d6 X-Spam_score: 0.5 X-Spam_score_int: 5 X-Spam_bar: / X-Spam_report: Spam detection software, running on the system "chain.digitalkingdom.org", has identified this incoming email as possible spam. The original message has been attached to this so you can view it (if it isn't spam) or label similar future email. If you have any questions, see the administrator of that system for details. Content preview: I see. Thanks for the explanations folks. It sounds like an interesting discussion. On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > > my lojban is nowhere near good enough to be able to understand discussion > > about lojban in lojban. Could someone give me a brief synopsis of what's > > being said here: I gather that it's a minor disagreement having > something > > to do with stress/emphasis of sumti? > > > .ui sai > > Lojban is making good progress! I remember when I first joined the > Lojban list, I think it was a bit more than a decade ago now, I > X-archive-position: 2093 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --00163646d10e0c5eb30471c927d6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I see. Thanks for the explanations folks. It sounds like an interesting discussion. On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 12:35 AM, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > > my lojban is nowhere near good enough to be able to understand discussion > > about lojban in lojban. Could someone give me a brief synopsis of what's > > being said here: I gather that it's a minor disagreement having > something > > to do with stress/emphasis of sumti? > > > .ui sai > > Lojban is making good progress! I remember when I first joined the > Lojban list, I think it was a bit more than a decade ago now, I > wondered why all the debates about Lojban's grammar were in English. > I felt that they would be much clearer in Lojban. And now we're > finally to the point where discussion of Lojban in Lojban is common, > so common that it's always even spilling over into when we're supposed > to be teaching newbies! :> > > The topic is the difference in status between a sumti which takes one > of the proper places of a selbri, as x1, x2, etc., vs one which is in > a tacked-on BAI place. I would say that it's not so much a difference > of emphasis as of specificity. Something in a numbered, basic place > has a definite, conventional relationship to the activity, but > something tagged with a BAI or a fi'o phrase has a certain vagueness > to its relationship. I heard someone on IRC recently describe "broda > fi'o brode ku" as being parallel with "brode broda", and I would agree > with that; something in a BAI or fi'o place is in the same vagueness > of relationship to the selbri as something attached to a seltau (se > tanru, the modifier, the first part). > > So for instance in the translation we're discussing, "lo xarci cu > vlipa mau lo pinsi", the sumti "lo xarci" is in the x1 place and so it > is clearly in the role of being powerful. The other sumti though, "lo > pinsi", is in a BAI place created by the tag "mau", zmadu, more. All > we know about the pencil is its more-ness, not specifically what the > relationship is between its more-ness and the power discussed in the > selbri (though there is certainly some relationship). I would say > it's very similar to the vagueness you'd get if you said "lo pinsi cu > zmadu cei broda" (a pencil is more, which we'll call broda) and then > said "lo xarci cu broda vlipa". The moreness of the pencil is > involved somehow with the relationship, but it's not said how. > > In context, though, it's plain to see what the relationship is, and > what's meant. In my opinion it's a perfectly clear and useful way of > translating the phrase. Lojban is just very specific about its > vagueness. > > > mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o > > > > --00163646d10e0c5eb30471c927d6 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I see.=A0 Thanks for the explanations folks.=A0 It sounds like an interesti= ng discussion.

On Sun, Aug 23, 2009 at 12= :35 AM, Stela Selckiku <selckiku@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 22, 2009 at 3:50 PM, Luke Bergen<lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
> my lojban is nowhere near good enough to be able to understand discuss= ion
> about lojban in lojban.=A0 Could someone give me a brief synopsis of w= hat's
> being said here:=A0 I gather that it's a minor disagreement having= something
> to do with stress/emphasis of sumti?


.ui sai

Lojban is making good progress! =A0I remember when I first joined the
Lojban list, I think it was a bit more than a decade ago now, I
wondered why all the debates about Lojban's grammar were in English. I felt that they would be much clearer in Lojban. =A0And now we're
finally to the point where discussion of Lojban in Lojban is common,
so common that it's always even spilling over into when we're suppo= sed
to be teaching newbies! :>

The topic is the difference in status between a sumti which takes one
of the proper places of a selbri, as x1, x2, etc., vs one which is in
a tacked-on BAI place. =A0I would say that it's not so much a differenc= e
of emphasis as of specificity. =A0Something in a numbered, basic place
has a definite, conventional relationship to the activity, but
something tagged with a BAI or a fi'o phrase has a certain vagueness to its relationship. =A0I heard someone on IRC recently describe "brod= a
fi'o brode ku" as being parallel with "brode broda", and= I would agree
with that; something in a BAI or fi'o place is in the same vagueness of relationship to the selbri as something attached to a seltau (se
tanru, the modifier, the first part).

So for instance in the translation we're discussing, "lo xarci cu<= br> vlipa mau lo pinsi", the sumti "lo xarci" is in the x1 place= and so it
is clearly in the role of being powerful. =A0The other sumti though, "= lo
pinsi", is in a BAI place created by the tag "mau", zmadu, m= ore. =A0All
we know about the pencil is its more-ness, not specifically what the
relationship is between its more-ness and the power discussed in the
selbri (though there is certainly some relationship). =A0I would say
it's very similar to the vagueness you'd get if you said "lo p= insi cu
zmadu cei broda" (a pencil is more, which we'll call broda) and th= en
said "lo xarci cu broda vlipa". =A0The moreness of the pencil is<= br> involved somehow with the relationship, but it's not said how.

In context, though, it's plain to see what the relationship is, and
what's meant. =A0In my opinion it's a perfectly clear and useful wa= y of
translating the phrase. =A0Lojban is just very specific about its
vagueness.


mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o




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