From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Aug 24 19:34:12 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:34:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MflrQ-0003Jx-IX for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:34:12 -0700 Received: from mail-vw0-f179.google.com ([209.85.212.179]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MflrN-0003JT-1r for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:34:12 -0700 Received: by vws9 with SMTP id 9so2276067vws.25 for ; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:34:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=uVZcMOj3rJbLx5Hllj2Xcb9p/zAmyHmTkhoLTU3/FaA=; b=hccIoRMlAT4T6GwEmDN4W9KeiF1Vs9TcOIn9wGn2UYApIIxys12Um2aRwfI8bYg8qV 9vyw5Awa/+crChbBfQ435q7G9R/rZOgOHnyhFndJWu13uOYkqI/evca9I8McJ4TKendj i26bny1CO1VgZIW6vR5PTL2Hw7FC19HDN07LM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ja5SbA5Q1YEsFX3kItWwX2Op0PxPfeObwzUPUSDMOqUx1N/C1j+qiyFef5OrHuz9k0 XFPWVzIsDvwlrucNJkZ9YPxtKu6xapnGYD+h6HRpReuT8qf9tkMDbqnG0VEHdJQtlzon eC37LjICt1ElX8rxs3yRL/auWv885TlZtx9SA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.88.14 with SMTP id y14mr6929786vcl.7.1251167642490; Mon, 24 Aug 2009 19:34:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20090825010744.GA16044@sdf.lonestar.org> References: <95b2fb130908241456p6d89ee60y325e4e316fb58299@mail.gmail.com> <20090824222155.GA26713@sdf.lonestar.org> <95b2fb130908241637h54f6288ci457ae336f9c7a41c@mail.gmail.com> <20090825010744.GA16044@sdf.lonestar.org> Date: Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:34:02 -0400 Message-ID: <95b2fb130908241934j6fe066d0j4917a91dfb0e149c@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Distinguishing Type 3 and 4 fu'ivla From: "H. Felton" To: Lojban Beginners Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-archive-position: 2103 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: fagricipni@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Mon, Aug 24, 2009 at 9:07 PM, Minimiscience wrote: > de'i li 24 pi'e 08 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. H. Felton .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > Why would {fu'ivla} be split into two separate types? The division between > types 3 and 4 is a convention, and discriminating between them is only relevant > for semantic purposes, not morphological (i.e., identifying a type 3 {fu'ivla} > lets you determine the general concept it describes). Also, your {vlalei} list > omits {cmene}/{cmevla}. Yea, I forgot to mention cmevla. I'd call the program that I am thinking of working on after I get my memorization program working a sort of "training wheels" for Lojban: aside from uncompressing run-together words, it will also be designed to split lujvo in to rafsi and hyphens, and for possible Type 3 fu'ivla picking off the rafsi and hyphen when asked. Let me give a sample interaction (user input prefixed by ?): ?wordclass("lenubecybai") Multiple Word ?wordsplit("lenubecybai") le nu becybai ?wordclass("becybai") lujvo ?lujvosplit("becybai") bec -y- bai ?selrafsi("bai") bapli ?selrafsi("bec") Error: no such rafsi ?wordclass("cidjrspageti") Possible Type 3 fu'ivla ?category("cidjrspageti") cidj -r- spageti ?selrafsi("cidj") cidja ?selrafsi("sel") se Hopefully, by the time I get the second program working, I wouldn't have to look up "cidj" or "sel", but I might still have to look up some of the 3-letter rafsi, until I can fully use Lojban. _My_ intention is to use this program as a way of helping me "disassemble" run-together word and things built from rafsi at first, and later as I become more experienced in Lojban, I'll need the program less and less. Notice, I will deliberately leave out English word look-up; I consider knowing the meaning of the gismu and cmavo too important to automate. Of course, once I get my program written and post it up somewhere, others can modify it to do whatever they want. This is getting a bit far from Lojban-Beginners, but I wanted to explain the utility of distinguishing (possible) Type 3 and Type 4 fu'ivla. Since there is no way to be sure that a possible Type 3 is not actually a Type 4, splitting apart the rafsi, hyphen, and rest of the word only suggests a possible meaning. This is not actually a problem for me: on another non-Lojban group I use the username "fagricipni"; some people found that that name was hard to remember, and one person noted that it most easily shortened to "fag". In order to spare people on that group the awkwardness of calling me "fag"; I suggested they use the syllable "cip", I did note that this was actually the rafsi for "cipra" meaning "test", but that I had met quite a number of people named Crystal and none of them were very crystalline. The actual rafsi for "cipni", "cpi", does not occur as a sequence of letters in "fagricipni", so I decided that it was better to allow my nickname to be "cip" rather than "cpi". Also I thought that "cip" was likely to be easier for more people to pronounce, plus there's the bi-lingual pun that "cip" sounds like the English word "sheep", which is the last thing someone who knows me would call me. Actually, I just realized that I _couldn't_ use "cpi" as a cmeme in Lojban anyway. It would matter though; even if it had been possible to use "cpi" as a cmeme in Lojban, I'd just tell Lojbanists that asked about my nickname "cip" that, no, it doesn't derive from the rafsi for "cipra", but from an abbreviation of my full Lojban name "fagri cipni", and that in the context that the nickname was chosen "cip" seemed a better choice than "cpi". (Yes, I know that in Lojban, I must separate the words, but choosing usernames on systems, I don't use spaces.) Are you bored to tears, yet? :^) >> this also means that the program will identify "becrbai" as a lujvo (assuming >> I haven't make a mistake in generating a lujvo from those two rafsi) > > You did make a mistake; that 'r' should be a 'y'. 'R' is only allowed as a > hyphen in {lujvo} when the first {rafsi} is CVV and either the {tanru} contains > more than two words or the second {rafsi} is not CCV. > > mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. I'm trying to re-learn the knowledge that I had when I had studied Lojban for about a year, but I didn't get to an advanced level, and that's been about 5 years ago. mu'o mi'e fagri cipni