From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Thu Aug 27 07:29:12 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:29:12 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgfyS-0001EG-8S for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:29:12 -0700 Received: from mail-gx0-f219.google.com ([209.85.217.219]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MgfyP-0001Dh-Al for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:29:12 -0700 Received: by gxk19 with SMTP id 19so1294377gxk.0 for ; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:29:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=h6FXfi5r0OXFx4b02KHkMwIAjovRM31Qmw58xfMB5pY=; b=ukcjR6PfbplKaj1Ym/GD+TBdkEH/Qw8Se4MiEQQE5kxQemBeZ44ZouBGetFeKR9Qaq Q3Hp/RWe0yfHjHwxMFnLbEfcKj0PBb6gqQLSBxCAPr/GJytkFf0QC74V7Pb0tRqoBChM iqkcL1Fnq3XnLZVXxTevBJBS8/1TLKYiMrnZ0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=OixsFrutjZOdgqxbUj0JwiiDqxhyoVJtKc894+RlNExNwrVSJDg/h4YK38kgU+88X2 hr325Zaj1JKMufM2rMEdgFnFZy3J4M6ybLnsoxjULmgyytPKaok3+5cHYSdiIIQ47OEg ZmqyCjFyGVrkdyAV8QO+CJvxPZpUt9u0aJ8qU= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.150.90.36 with SMTP id n36mr13131181ybb.301.1251383342741; Thu, 27 Aug 2009 07:29:02 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5715b9300908261608j3fe3d0a0g2a6bd54a976d2518@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300908261608j3fe3d0a0g2a6bd54a976d2518@mail.gmail.com> Date: Thu, 27 Aug 2009 10:29:02 -0400 Message-ID: <96f789a60908270729m70bcf18bne8ce3b255783965a@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: jai From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2135 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Wed, Aug 26, 2009 at 7:08 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > So I have had this concept {jai} explained to me at least 4 times now.  Each > time I leave the chat room/mailing list/wherever honestly believing that > "now I get it" only to find a couple days later that it's just as foggy as > it was before the explanation.  Could I get one last explaniation that > explains the theory and a bunch of practical examples for the different > uses?  Could these examples have as little other grammer as possible to > cloud the usage of {jai}? > > Additionally, how vital is {jai} to becoming fluent in lojban? > Hypothetically, if I never did end up "getting it", how badly would that > effect my "fluency" in lojban? > The problem is that jai, like "bo" has several different uses depending on where it appears. Judson correctly described jai before a brivla where it is the "inverse" of tu'a, it makes something whose x1 normally a abstraction into a place taking a concrete thing that implies the abstraction (it simultaneously takes what would have originally been in the x1 place to a place that is onlyspecifiable with "fai"). Using jai before a modal and a brivla (e.g. "tai bajra") means that you x1 of the bridi is what would have been in the modal place of the bridi before (i.e. "ko'a jai tai bajra" = "bajra tai ko'a") and the old x1 place is again in the "fai" place. Can you get away without ever getting the hang of it? Well, it's sometimes useful when writing, since it allows you to specify things in sumti you might not have been able to do easily before, but I don't use it that much (it appears 12 times in "Esther"). However, you probably need to understand it in order to read other people's stuff. --gejyspa