From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Sat Sep 05 12:48:06 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Sat, 05 Sep 2009 12:48:06 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mk1Ez-0004kA-Gg for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Sat, 05 Sep 2009 12:48:06 -0700 Received: from ol.freeshell.org ([192.94.73.20] helo=sdf.lonestar.org) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Mk1Ew-0004jq-3E for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 05 Sep 2009 12:48:05 -0700 Received: from sdf.lonestar.org (IDENT:jwodder@iceland.freeshell.org [192.94.73.5]) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.14.3) with ESMTP id n85Jlv2C029249 for ; Sat, 5 Sep 2009 19:47:57 GMT Received: (from jwodder@localhost) by sdf.lonestar.org (8.14.3/8.12.8/Submit) id n85Jlv3x006270 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Sat, 5 Sep 2009 19:47:57 GMT Date: Sat, 5 Sep 2009 19:47:57 +0000 From: Minimiscience To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Absolute and relative quantifiers Message-ID: <20090905194756.GC24817@sdf.lonestar.org> Mail-Followup-To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org References: <9ada8ecd0909051212q431daa60i299344812e9bf6cb@mail.gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <9ada8ecd0909051212q431daa60i299344812e9bf6cb@mail.gmail.com> Organization: SDF Public Access UNIX System User-Agent: Mutt/1.5.19 (2009-01-05) X-archive-position: 2203 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: minimiscience@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners de'i li 05 pi'e 09 pi'e 2009 la'o fy. Squark Rabinovich .fy. cusku zoi skamyxatra. > According the *xamoi ckupau* of the "reference grammar", the usual outer > quantifier of a mass/set is something beginning with *pi* e.g. *piro *,*pisu'o > *,* pici* . That is, we specify which portion of the whole the mass/set > comprises. However, what if I want to specify the exact number? For instance > > *pinonononononononopa loi remna cu bevri le pipno* > > means that the piano was carried by a mass of humans, numbered earth > population x 1E-9, that is, about 7 people. .skamyxatra This was greatly changed several years ago by xorlo, which I linked to a description of in my response to one of your other questions. Your first example does mean that one billionth of a mass of humans carried the piano, but post-xorlo the size of the entire mass is unspecified by default, rather than referring to all humans in existence. Depending on context, the sentence could be interpreted as referring to one billionth of the human population of Earth, one billionth of a single person, or one billionth of the innumerable humanoids spread throughout this universe and others. In the lack of explicit quantification, it all depends on context. > However, what is I want to specify the exact number of people comprising the > mass? Is it legitimate to say > > *ze loi remna cu bevri le pipno* That means "Seven masses/groups of humans move the piano." To specify the number of individuals in a mass, use an inner quantifier, i.e., "{loi ze remna cu bevri le pipno}." > On the other hand, what if I want to use a relative quantifier with > individuals? For instance, can I say > > *pici le nanmu ca tavla* > * > * > In the sense that "a third of the men are/were/will be talking" (not > necessarily to each other or together in some other way)? That doesn't work the way you want it to. It means "One third of a single man (out of a group of men of unspecified size) talks." To get (roughly) your desired meaning, use "{loi}" or "{lei}" -- "{pici lei nanmu ca tavla}." While this does imply that the men are talking "together" in some way (i.e., if you were to view the men as a group, you could say that the group is talking), it does not necessarily mean that they talk to each other, with each other, or otherwise interacting with each other. mu'omi'e .kamymecraijun. -- lo panojauvaipa moi krinu be lonu cilre fi la lojban. zo'u noda ca'o se bangu la gliban.