From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Sep 07 04:25:56 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 07 Sep 2009 04:25:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkcM7-0008Ia-Nh for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2009 04:25:56 -0700 Received: from mail-yx0-f171.google.com ([209.85.210.171]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MkcM3-0008IC-Fk for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 07 Sep 2009 04:25:55 -0700 Received: by yxe1 with SMTP id 1so1358198yxe.28 for ; Mon, 07 Sep 2009 04:25:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:content-type:message-id:disposition-notification-to :content-transfer-encoding:from:subject:date:to:x-mailer; bh=2HQZUWqjL59Z8pnNfaTSJA97aCbbPukqW17mCsiJbh0=; b=jSui/1vlJPuOtiKH42qiBPvfHSpaSCJ/8XHmS0YH3x7S6yioMj3hJ7Tw2LzyVA0T2F ohBnk0+PZuFUpVtBGS4waeJaBgfa3oRE6sH+n/YYxuRDTL/5SMVZp+HuNJqC1NlZRI3k mNbagTdt/48E8+Tpoh817Mca81YMvDoWVO/7s= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=in-reply-to:references:mime-version:content-type:message-id :disposition-notification-to:content-transfer-encoding:from:subject :date:to:x-mailer; b=LVi77OBU8SmHHiTAUT7G3VlJszltDkQ4nw9q7tp7t/+w70v0cbw95XNllmnMIQ+Vo1 wHngnDCMKnFWVZVIG7g48gRfPP9HqF6kmwUO62lvJZlbVMNPE6QqUZrxn25d5V1rBe8j 8gfjaOUhs8rMy0hcwYL0zPJV1wdMLmQPPvwEQ= Received: by 10.101.85.5 with SMTP id n5mr4199820anl.57.1252322744687; Mon, 07 Sep 2009 04:25:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ?192.168.201.8? (203.123.94.110.static.rev.eftel.com [203.123.94.110]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 23sm1960967ywh.11.2009.09.07.04.25.40 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5); Mon, 07 Sep 2009 04:25:42 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <425e4ac20909061740w3e25dc9dl774fa067f00b850a@mail.gmail.com> References: <5715b9300909061025w39db3696k72c6511910cc454a@mail.gmail.com> <425e4ac20909061740w3e25dc9dl774fa067f00b850a@mail.gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Apple Message framework v753.1) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Message-Id: <5B77BEB6-3093-4FEC-BD9B-E8305C5E2A57@gmail.com> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: henka stickebana Subject: [lojban-beginners] help with lujvo kilga'axa'i Date: Mon, 7 Sep 2009 21:25:24 +1000 To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-archive-position: 2224 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: henka.stickebana@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners Hello all, I'm trying to learn Lojban by writing a simple reader. I've a fish spear in my story. I'd like to understand how the lojban for spear "kilga'axa'i" came about, (as new?) in the 6th Edition of the Lojban-English dictionary pdf. It's a quite complex word for a 'reader', and given that spears are not very complex it is somewhat inappropriate. Let me digress. I'd like to write a 'reader' which humans can relate to from across a wide geographic background. Not culturally neutral so much as what might be common to humanity given our wide geographic spread. So I've storyboarded a short 'reader' like text hoping to illustrate it with examples of the logic of lojban. I'd be aiming for a Lojban only text (though in might end up tri- or quad-lingual). Anyway, I've almost immediately found that because of Lojban's originary bias to be gainfully neutral it is quite lacking (perhaps the wrong word) in fairly 'simple' 'everyday' stuff. [end digression] Like spear. From online dictionary: Word: kilga'axa'i [jbovlaste] Type: lujvo Gloss Word: lance Gloss Word: spear Gloss Word: javelin Definition: $x_1=xa_1=g_1=k_1$ is a lance/spear/javelin/pointed- rod weapon for use against $x_2=xa_2$ by $x_3=xa_3$ of material x4. Notes: kinli grana xarci; this lujvo structure is from noralujv. The author of this definition is uncertain that jesxa'i would not be a better lujvo for the purpose. from kinli sharp grana cane/pole/rod/staff xarci weapon I'd like to suggest that the last of these three root gismu is unnecessary as not all sharp poles are weapons, which, in English at least tend to refer to objects intend to harm humans, and so willfully design to be so. A fish spear can be used as a weapon, but is not necessarily a weapon. How do I go about address this? kinli grana would be enough of a tanru, and while this would be enough to refer to both hunting/fish spears and digging sticks, if not crow bars or jemmy/pinch bars, would a more appropriate lujvo not be: kinna (not currently in dictionary? I'm unsure.) instead of kilga'axa'i which could be restricted to weapons designed to be used against humans???? Back to the digression. My to-be-written 'reader' assumes that many elements of a hunter- gather lifestyle are common to humans but this technology is not basic to lojban grammar or vocab. As indeed Indo-european's farming vocabulary set is not basic to Lojban either. cheers maikas