From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Wed Sep 23 05:52:31 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:52:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MqRKg-0007WY-QB for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:52:31 -0700 Received: from mail-px0-f185.google.com ([209.85.216.185]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MqRKc-0007Vg-TR for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:52:30 -0700 Received: by pxi15 with SMTP id 15so549784pxi.25 for ; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:52:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=mQB9SMPo4PV9wzxpSCZl1ONV1ElwPDsnuBV0K85mzDI=; b=uGcbTWho+1Xd6UbtRv2duhcNJ+B6+eu0V075hrsnBy2e6lJQbLOQ8hWklWgKgDiOPE 0aYP1SD5kpV3Kp2LHEAeu3jWA0x3+wv8yxO1qPUiUMfkl69hx8CggE6ny/jgsaUwkLdI 1ez8W7+U1v/M9AfmqZ6pfZUAyy4fd4vA2h8kA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=kETnoPFnnlfFFGSqrmMsmsxzOHJ3t1f2KJezcF68vOvecOS0eSIMSSuOdYWa55Tt5/ azMxOx9z17HYhZ5UZeaGpFWgMe/Hm4ZF6ustNtfbs+8zfTlTdiFK14d492BBZV8WwJIb oxQEJYHe8iHdRDLYjsr4Z7fi9U4iscXhASJZA= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.196.7 with SMTP id t7mr172181wff.33.1253710340605; Wed, 23 Sep 2009 05:52:20 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <200909172244.32493.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <7f1d42860909171135p21b10ac9x4759450c9721ac0c@mail.gmail.com> <200909172244.32493.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Wed, 23 Sep 2009 08:52:20 -0400 Message-ID: <96f789a60909230552y505e459wddb3da58b425b416@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: attempt at translation From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2392 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Thu, Sep 17, 2009 at 10:44 PM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > > On Thursday 17 September 2009 14:35:55 Ryan Leach wrote: > > lu mi pu tirna da'e ra'i da'e goi mi pa'upatfu .ije mi pa'upatfu go'e > > .ije do'i rapli nu so'i pano nanca .i > > I was stumped by the first sentence, but it parses. It means "«I heard it > (which is something I'll say later) from it (which is something I'll say > later) which is I» is a father with a component". Actually, it doesn't parse. "mi pu tirna da'e ra'i da'e goi mi pa'u" is fine, but "patfu" is an illegal second selbri in the main sentence. "tirna" is the selbri. One thing I'm not sure if Ryan caught here is that "pa'upatfu" isn't a lujvo formed from"patfu patfu", because the pa'u part "falls off" the front of patfu. The rule is that if CVV,CV'V, or CV at the beginning of an ostensible lujvo can be removed as a cmavo, leaving a legal word, it is interpreted that way (this is the so-called "tosmabru test" (See the CLL, chaper 4, section 11, part 5)). In those cases, the first rafsi must be "glued on" to the rest with a "hyphen" (y (for an intial CVC rafsi),r,or n, (if the next part starts with r)). So "pa'upatfu" should have been "pa'urpatfu" in order to parse correctly. But considered even better is the "lowest scoring" lujvo form, which is "pafpa'u" in this case. >From Ryan: >pe'u ko sidju mi cu lo cilre .i ko cikre mi loi fanva This isn't grammatical, etiher. "cu" should appear directly before the selbri (the predicate relationship), in this case "sidju". In addition, since you want help with "learning", not a learner", it's an event abstraction, "lo nu cilre", so the first sentence is pe'u ko [cu] sidju mi lo nu cilre (The "cu" is elidable here, because it's preceded by a pro-sumti, so that can't latch onto the "sidju" in a tanru) The second sentence, while grammatical, asks the listener to be fix you in order to be used for translator purposes. But I suspect all you want is your translation fixed, so "ko cikre lo mi xelfanva (or "xe fanva")" --gejyspa