From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Oct 05 07:20:00 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:20:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MuoPv-0003xS-PE for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:20:00 -0700 Received: from mail-pz0-f183.google.com ([209.85.222.183]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1MuoPr-0003oI-C1 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:19:59 -0700 Received: by pzk13 with SMTP id 13so2991964pzk.25 for ; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:19:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ePtnzsMZY8Ud+Uf/y7tTKvbCdvCpFuDFMaCQ43EuXl4=; b=g8J8QYje/xq4PoOBMZbLqrLwMagxCK2F15y68amj8Vs0V3wj5DreKvu2IAteGfGwff vNNr/9m9VZJBG+HOPIr5+gvJpk6qM/l0fVOdYyjlAoq1C79tJzSajNDtNjM20rNnCWMy q8HDLulAEuLr9Bc30EwlPAyDAvQfmkRsiEQR8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=ZpW/ZITOFi2cdZ9NBIFMgUM4dokW3NY1msc3KYXRJScz0HyeBuJAaMg2dZ6P65bJEF BcZPLhoTxIjg2SItCizrorPd6BO+2J7Y0el4L9XBJPvUFymqwwKc3AxaSTUe+JAJBp62 EDfDF+u5y4Se23I7jV6OUvvBOz+T5JD4IKfAM= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.60.18 with SMTP id i18mr2992wfa.290.1254752389021; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:19:49 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <27513e550910050545v53b8bcd4x6631ee8ead7c3d72@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1d42860910021120n1033c6a3wbef9131c23f2c9a0@mail.gmail.com> <27513e550910022003g4c4bb780s8c36f55c805feba0@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60910050447q7f476f89mda57aa07f9ac1607@mail.gmail.com> <27513e550910050545v53b8bcd4x6631ee8ead7c3d72@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 10:19:48 -0400 Message-ID: <96f789a60910050719o2ca2fffdqa1d7743476adca61@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: using 'se' in conversation From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2443 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners 2009/10/5 Oren : >>>The most literal translation of the English is "mi pu noroi viska da >>>poi na se nelci be mi" (I have up-to-now 0-times seen something which >>>it was not true it is liked by me) >>> >>>          --gejyspa > > ki'esai .i mulno  ...(is there a lujvo for "comprehensive" or "thorough?" > =p) > > that was just the explanation I was looking for! > > one follow up question regarding: > > .i mi pu noroi viska da poi na se nelci be mi > (I have up-to-now 0-times seen something such that it's not true that > said-thing is liked by me) > ((I've never seen something I haven't liked)) > > ...if i wanted to make this sentence sound more chinese with a topic-comment > structure, how close can we get the lojban word order to align to it? > You certainly can get Chinese-style topic-comment sentences. See CLL, chapter 19, section 4 > Chinese/English gloss > > 一个我不喜欢的东西，我从来没有看过 > 一个, 我 , 不 , 喜欢 , 的 , 东西，我 , 从来 , 没有 , 看过 > yige, wo, bu , xihuan , de , dongxi ，wo , conglai , meiyou , kanguo > a, I, not , like, [adjectival-phrase] , thing , ，, I , up-til-now , haven't > , seen > > I don't know how I can put 'I-do-not-like' *in front* of lojban's "da" ... > here's my attempt at reversing the sentence ignoring that feature though: > > .i da poi na se nelci be mi cu be mi pu noroi se viska > (something which is not liked by me, has by-me up-to-now 0-times been seen) That's not really topic-comment, but it can be fixed up to be grammatical and say what you want to say this way: da poi na nelci be mi ku'o mi pu noroi se viska (something, which is not liked by me, is by-me up to this time 0 times seen) However, that (and my first setence) only really means that there is at least one particular not-by-like-by-you thing which has not been seen by you. Doesn't really mean that ALL things that you don't like you haven't seen. Really, should have been "naku da poi na nelci be mi ku'o mi pu se viska" (It is not true that there is at least one thing which is not liked by me, that I have seen). To do even closer to the Chinese, though: lo se na'e nelci be mi zo'u mi pu na viska (A other-than-liked-by-me thing: I haven't seen) --gejyspa