From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Oct 05 07:33:34 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:33:34 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Muod3-000827-TS for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:33:34 -0700 Received: from mail-vw0-f186.google.com ([209.85.212.186]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Muocy-0007zZ-Kn for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:33:33 -0700 Received: by vws16 with SMTP id 16so2504522vws.2 for ; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:33:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :from:date:message-id:subject:to:content-type; bh=l9/vfswmFAzVD9JLGJnfuRL2bQTnNM6mgjVjixMT590=; b=fx2NGfzIidQpHzA5gdlfJPeaVsklnLPam1wsMyQy4eCq37F4c9io2zoegvzZEErhri THG3eDymtniROBFhGa+GsjmDKHAhl87/BXsv3gGG4Rk2KJ1SZSkHs1RV+/c4mKi9bnNG GHwRSD5QxHAQ814xXmdsWTa5AF21r95G39EuM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :content-type; b=NMfEKo5X9oAnF8XJshT7iT49mEbxcthX6pNzkF96okVctm3WQBbTJRxIjEA3UAP9xN Dz0YpppOXZ96QhJQgD9o48jbtFbTB1uonpCOsYj21aPyCFW+eBS5CRN5z3AI42Yzj3Pe lsCXhxktcTZEdvZjuccY2rTSUg0FFy0FUXsMs= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.220.88.209 with SMTP id b17mr101323vcm.98.1254753202093; Mon, 05 Oct 2009 07:33:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <96f789a60910050719o2ca2fffdqa1d7743476adca61@mail.gmail.com> References: <7f1d42860910021120n1033c6a3wbef9131c23f2c9a0@mail.gmail.com> <27513e550910022003g4c4bb780s8c36f55c805feba0@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60910050447q7f476f89mda57aa07f9ac1607@mail.gmail.com> <27513e550910050545v53b8bcd4x6631ee8ead7c3d72@mail.gmail.com> <96f789a60910050719o2ca2fffdqa1d7743476adca61@mail.gmail.com> From: Oren Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 22:33:01 +0800 Message-ID: <27513e550910050733m37d4d456p8aa789e23e8b72d3@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: using 'se' in conversation To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001636284e58e44094047530fe93 X-archive-position: 2444 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: get.oren@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --001636284e58e44094047530fe93 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .i mi pu noroi viska la gejyspa poi na se nelci be mi .i ki'e On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 22:19, Michael Turniansky wro= te: > 2009/10/5 Oren : > >>>The most literal translation of the English is "mi pu noroi viska da > >>>poi na se nelci be mi" (I have up-to-now 0-times seen something which > >>>it was not true it is liked by me) > >>> > >>> --gejyspa > > > > ki'esai .i mulno ...(is there a lujvo for "comprehensive" or "thorough= ?" > > =3Dp) > > > > that was just the explanation I was looking for! > > > > one follow up question regarding: > > > > .i mi pu noroi viska da poi na se nelci be mi > > (I have up-to-now 0-times seen something such that it's not true that > > said-thing is liked by me) > > ((I've never seen something I haven't liked)) > > > > ...if i wanted to make this sentence sound more chinese with a > topic-comment > > structure, how close can we get the lojban word order to align to it? > > > > You certainly can get Chinese-style topic-comment sentences. See > CLL, chapter 19, section 4 > > > > Chinese/English gloss > > > > =D2=BB=B8=F6=CE=D2=B2=BB=CF=B2=BB=B6=B5=C4=B6=AB=CE=F7=A3=AC=CE=D2=B4= =D3=C0=B4=C3=BB=D3=D0=BF=B4=B9=FD > > =D2=BB=B8=F6, =CE=D2 , =B2=BB , =CF=B2=BB=B6 , =B5=C4 , =B6=AB=CE=F7=A3= =AC=CE=D2 , =B4=D3=C0=B4 , =C3=BB=D3=D0 , =BF=B4=B9=FD > > yige, wo, bu , xihuan , de , dongxi =A3=ACwo , conglai , meiyou , kangu= o > > a, I, not , like, [adjectival-phrase] , thing , =A3=AC, I , up-til-now = , > haven't > > , seen > > > > I don't know how I can put 'I-do-not-like' *in front* of lojban's "da" > ... > > here's my attempt at reversing the sentence ignoring that feature thoug= h: > > > > .i da poi na se nelci be mi cu be mi pu noroi se viska > > (something which is not liked by me, has by-me up-to-now 0-times been > seen) > > That's not really topic-comment, but it can be fixed up to be > grammatical and say what you want to say this way: > da poi na nelci be mi ku'o mi pu noroi se viska (something, which is > not liked by me, is by-me up to this time 0 times seen) However, > that (and my first setence) only really means that there is at least > one particular not-by-like-by-you thing which has not been seen by > you. Doesn't really mean that ALL things that you don't like you > haven't seen. Really, should have been "naku da poi na nelci be mi > ku'o mi pu se viska" (It is not true that there is at least one thing > which is not liked by me, that I have seen). To do even closer to the > Chinese, though: > > lo se na'e nelci be mi zo'u mi pu na viska (A other-than-liked-by-me > thing: I haven't seen) > --gejyspa > > > > --=20 =B0=D7=CB=C9 - Oren Robinson +86-15810101944 Sent from Beijing, 11, China --001636284e58e44094047530fe93 Content-Type: text/html; charset=GB2312 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable .i mi pu noroi viska la gejyspa poi na se nelci be mi
.i ki'e
On Mon, Oct 5, 2009 at 22:19, Michael Turniansk= y <mturniansk= y@gmail.com> wrote:
2009/10/5 Oren &l= t;get.oren@gmail.com>:
>>>The most literal translation of the English i= s "mi pu noroi viska da
>>>poi na se nelci be mi" (I have up-to-now 0-times seen some= thing which
>>>it was not true it is liked by me)
>>>
>>>          --gejyspa
>
> ki'esai .i mulno  ...(is there a lujvo for "comprehensiv= e" or "thorough?"
> =3Dp)
>
> that was just the explanation I was looking for!
>
> one follow up question regarding:
>
> .i mi pu noroi viska da poi na se nelci be mi
> (I have up-to-now 0-times seen something such that it's not true t= hat
> said-thing is liked by me)
> ((I've never seen something I haven't liked))
>
> ...if i wanted to make this sentence sound more chinese with a topic-c= omment
> structure, how close can we get the lojban word order to align to it?<= br> >

 You certainly can get Chinese-style topic-comment sentences. &= nbsp;See
CLL, chapter 19, section 4


> Chinese/English gloss
>
> =D2=BB=B8=F6=CE=D2=B2=BB=CF=B2=BB=B6=B5=C4=B6=AB=CE=F7=A3=AC=CE=D2=B4= =D3=C0=B4=C3=BB=D3=D0=BF=B4=B9=FD
> =D2=BB=B8=F6, =CE=D2 , =B2=BB , =CF=B2=BB=B6 , =B5=C4 , =B6=AB=CE=F7= =A3=AC=CE=D2 , =B4=D3=C0=B4 , =C3=BB=D3=D0 , =BF=B4=B9=FD
> yige, wo, bu , xihuan , de , dongxi =A3=ACwo , conglai , meiyou , kang= uo
> a, I, not , like, [adjectival-phrase] , thing , =A3=AC, I , up-til-now= , haven't
> , seen
>
> I don't know how I can put 'I-do-not-like' *in front* of l= ojban's "da" ...
> here's my attempt at reversing the sentence ignoring that feature = though:
>
> .i da poi na se nelci be mi cu be mi pu noroi se viska
> (something which is not liked by me, has by-me up-to-now 0-times been = seen)

 That's not really topic-comment, but it can be fixed up to= be
grammatical and say what you want to say this way:
da poi na nelci be mi ku'o mi pu noroi se viska  (something, which= is
not liked by me, is by-me up to this time 0 times  seen)   Howeve= r,
that (and my first setence) only really means that there is at least
one particular not-by-like-by-you thing which has not been seen by
you.  Doesn't really mean that ALL things that you don't like = you
haven't seen.  Really, should have been "naku  da poi na= nelci be mi
ku'o mi pu se viska" (It is not true that there is at least one th= ing
which is not liked by me, that I have seen).  To do even closer to the=
Chinese, though:

 lo se na'e nelci be mi zo'u mi pu na viska (A other-than-like= d-by-me
thing: I haven't seen)
                    &nbs= p;    --gejyspa






--
=B0=D7=CB=C9 - Oren Rob= inson
+86-15810101944
Sent from Beijing, 11, China --001636284e58e44094047530fe93--