From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Nov 02 06:36:27 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:36:28 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N4y1B-0006LL-4V for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:36:27 -0800 Received: from mail-pz0-f183.google.com ([209.85.222.183]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N4y17-0006K7-3t for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:36:24 -0800 Received: by pzk13 with SMTP id 13so3154749pzk.25 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:36:14 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=0Rc5k7iPH8mIzRdgOJp/jIKN3QQdya7Zfr83Xab+yow=; b=k100Iw4h5SCC4263b+jskQuSMfCtGUQPMzFgiZcZtJcuMFWdxcGbses30fJcxqO9v+ 3JbbUTeNRPtCozZ4W7xFi8DhsehRybIzUOGhBC7vcgwWFgOKiPXlzjmfHaarAkZ881kD yOFEbA+h1+4C7mGZbL/b/KsRw4z+3hoCGyYmQ= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=jeLIEgJUxycubdBuBygvUCwTMlse6EMA0cZpKxTKymqVwtySMGwxldQHSHF8BjFBDR giRk3P2Tq8qO2e3pdrby+F1ZwcOPu6qrbv+dY/nY+jlqwDIdOEOS6tRJi+DfbOAQXRTK 2WCtkKhlZHfc0xx3L31klPoo3QzSV5fDblvZI= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.202.9 with SMTP id z9mr696920wff.166.1257172574090; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 06:36:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <27513e550910301724t26c26060sae87b3b6ed5358ca@mail.gmail.com> References: <27513e550910291914p6c2f06cdi4c6ee61a8d056744@mail.gmail.com> <200910300049.45845.phma@phma.optus.nu> <27513e550910300836x72c7bb57jced0b80f9415fbf3@mail.gmail.com> <200910301201.33462.phma@phma.optus.nu> <27513e550910301724t26c26060sae87b3b6ed5358ca@mail.gmail.com> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 10:36:14 -0400 Message-ID: <96f789a60911020636j317298ddy6474542987291337@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: n00b translation request From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by Ecartis X-archive-position: 2530 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: mturniansky@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners On Fri, Oct 30, 2009 at 8:24 PM, Oren wrote: > The two sentences below were not my doing! These were the proposed earlier > in the thread by Pierre Abbat and Luke Bergen, respectively. > > Both contain a "sel" prefix, which I know has something to do with a "second > conversion," but in this context, I can't find an explanation for why it's > necessary-- we're just making a tanru right? I've  skimmed both CLL and > level 0. If someone can help me understand why 'sel-' is added to these, I > would be very grateful! > > mu'omi'e .ku'us. > > On Sat, Oct 31, 2009 at 00:01, Pierre Abbat wrote: >> >> >    1. *.i nalcertu ke fanva selcpedu >> >    .i lo to'e certu selfanva bo cpedu* >> > >> >    Can someone explain or point me to where I can learn about why adding >> >    'sel' is necessary? >> >> I think you're confusing the place structures of "cpedu" and "preti". lu >> ma >> zasti? li'u preti zo'e mi do .iku'i mi cpedu lu ko ga'orgau le canko li'u >> do. > "nalcertu ke fanva cpedu" would mean "a non-expert (translator-requester)", since a cpedu is someone who requests something. Since you were translating "a novice translation request" you wanted "selcpedu", the thing being requested, not "cpedu" the requester. Similarly, "lo to'e certu fanva bo cpedu" would mean a "a novice (translator-requester)", whereas "lo to'e certu selfanva bo cpedu" means a novice (translated-from requester), since a fanva is one who translates, but a selfanva is what they are translating. Although arguably, both of these are wrong, at it really should be, IMO "to'e certu ke nunfanva selcpedu" or "to'e certu ke xelfanva selcpedu" since you are requesting either an event of translating (the first version) or the a translation result (the second version). --gejyspa