From nobody@digitalkingdom.org Mon Nov 02 08:52:47 2009 Received: with ECARTIS (v1.0.0; list lojban-beginners); Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:52:47 -0800 (PST) Received: from nobody by chain.digitalkingdom.org with local (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N5098-0000vt-TU for lojban-beginners-real@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:52:47 -0800 Received: from mail-bw0-f215.google.com ([209.85.218.215]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1N5092-0000uy-A4 for lojban-beginners@lojban.org; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:52:46 -0800 Received: by bwz7 with SMTP id 7so6657542bwz.26 for ; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:52:33 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:content-type; bh=RUeM1ulGqDtUWtcx0oYnT5ycVBr6LMdCMcA8UeDdWl0=; b=mXSoO5D1XNzRdP/unlsIjBrQs1TJm58jxiz3OnjNqWsGcbrOM+j+QRQm0fAxUxbOjg vdIJ/F7u+k5N3VCBe/SyJ3ecjEl1ntgYpafxkX4mj8zj7UwAtQjsY2rhdUUIzksOwr4+ M564wzf9yaqHUc7twLWxl2zumCm/5EPGqLJT8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :content-type; b=rm8ViUYEMIVQjN187j8OcuZ9wtRAGcbwpsfm64GztKdaN1teTFYs9ksJE1GZIVBCY1 Qh7nk8DZFBZCSq/cPnUcg0MbikIUhRPZk1GDasbkkTTkaA1Rx5/pMVH4ki0TUwq6i3N/ 7edeQyPH95KxtRxZ7CE1WBY2JVtPGBuu6rk+8= MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.204.162.200 with SMTP id w8mr4085886bkx.142.1257180752786; Mon, 02 Nov 2009 08:52:32 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <9DE5DB0988ED6C448E606734F5030D3822C1A9E9@bbcmbmx01.blackpool.gov.uk> References: <9DE5DB0988ED6C448E606734F5030D3822C1A9E9@bbcmbmx01.blackpool.gov.uk> Date: Mon, 2 Nov 2009 11:52:32 -0500 Message-ID: <249d5b950911020852r1338fb83x45f72f4d0d0e5c95@mail.gmail.com> Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a second opinion on this one From: Steven Lytle To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000325554f4a3036a20477663493 X-archive-position: 2535 X-ecartis-version: Ecartis v1.0.0 Sender: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org Errors-to: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org X-original-sender: lytlesw@gmail.com Precedence: bulk Reply-to: lojban-beginners@lojban.org X-list: lojban-beginners --000325554f4a3036a20477663493 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree. The present perfect in English in general means "was and is still". There is no sense of "is no longer". OTOH, "I ran" means I was running but am no longer running. "I was running" implies I'm not still running. "I have run many times" implies that I ran many times in the past and will probably in the future, but am not running at the moment. "I have eaten" does seem to imply that I'm no longer eating. Maybe the difference has to do with states vs. actions. In the case of "has been dead", though, if something has been dead, it stil= l is dead. stevo On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Michael Eaton < michael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote: > Not entirely. "Has been dead" is one of those syntactically bizarre > phrases that Lojban is designed to avoid. It's not *implicit*, but the > syntax leans towards "was at one time dead, but is no longer dead". "Was = and > is still dead" is, rather more simply, "dead". > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailto: > lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]*On Behalf Of *Steven Lytle > *Sent:* 02 November 2009 16:29 > *To:* lojban-beginners@lojban.org > *Subject:* [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like a secon= d > opinion on this one > > "Has been dead" means "was and is still dead". > stevo > > 2009/11/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas > >> On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 12:53 PM, tijlan wrote: >> > >> > da ca co'i morsi (One dies.) >> > da ca ba'o morsi (One is dead.) >> >> That would work if "morsi" meant "dies" (a change of state, goes from >> being alive to being dead) rather than "is dead" (a state). >> >> "ba'o morsi" means "has been dead" (i.e., it is no longer dead), not >> "has died" (it is no longer dying). >> >> Compare with "sipna", which is more likely than "morsi" to be used >> with "ba'o". "ba'o sipna" means "has been asleep", not "has fallen >> asleep". "Falls asleep" is "sipybi'o" or "co'a sipna", and "dies" is >> "mrobi'o" or "co'a morsi". "co'i sipna" and "co'i morsi" are complete >> events of sleeping, or of being dead. The difference is that events of >> being dead don't usually ever end, so its unlikely that one would >> speak of "ba'o morsi", "having been dead", except in some very special >> contexts. >> >> mu'o mi'e xorxes >> >> >> >> > > > http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ > > This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as > part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. > > > > Click here = to > report this email as spam. > > > > http://www.blackpool.gov.uk/EmailDisclaimer/ > This message has been scanned for inappropriate or malicious content as > part of the Council's e-mail and Internet policies. > > > *************************************************************************= ***** > See the Blackpool You Tube video aimed at attracting French visitors by > clicking this link http://www.visitblackpool.com/jetaime > > > *************************************************************************= ***** > --000325554f4a3036a20477663493 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I disagree. The present perfect in English in general means "was = and is still". There is no sense of "is no longer".
OTOH, "I ran" means I was running but am no longer running. = "I was running" implies I'm not still running.
"I have run many times" implies that I ran many times in the= past and will probably in the future, but am not running at the moment.
"I have eaten" does seem to imply that I'm no longer eat= ing.
Maybe the difference has to do with states vs. actions.
In the case of "has been dead", though, if something has bee= n dead, it still is dead.
stevo

On Mon, Nov 2, 2009 at 11:36 AM, Michael Eaton <= span dir=3D"ltr"><mich= ael.eaton@blackpool.gov.uk> wrote:
Not = entirely. "Has been dead" is one of those syntactically bizarre p= hrases that Lojban is designed to avoid. It's not implicit, bu= t the syntax leans towards "was at one time dead, but is no longer dea= d". "Was and is still dead" is, rather more simply, "de= ad".
-----Origi= nal Message-----
From: lojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org [mailt= o:l= ojban-beginners-bounce@lojban.org]On Behalf Of Steven Lytle
Sent: 02 November 2009 16:29
To: lojban-beginners@lojban.org
= Subject: [lojban-beginners] Re: Study plan for a quiz- I'd like = a second opinion on this one

"Has been dead" means "was and is still dead".
stevo

2009/11/1 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Sun, Nov 1, 2009 at 12:53 PM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
>> =A0da ca co'i morsi (One dies.)
> =A0da ca ba'o morsi = (One is dead.)

That would work if "morsi" meant "dies" (a ch= ange of state, goes from
being alive to being dead) rather than "is= dead" (a state).

"ba'o morsi" means "has be= en dead" (i.e., it is no longer dead), not
"has died" (it is no longer dying).

Compare with "sip= na", which is more likely than "morsi" to be used
with &q= uot;ba'o". "ba'o sipna" means "has been asleep&= quot;, not "has fallen
asleep". "Falls asleep" is "sipybi'o" or "= ;co'a sipna", and "dies" is
"mrobi'o" o= r "co'a morsi". "co'i sipna" and "co'i= morsi" are complete
events of sleeping, or of being dead. The difference is that events of
b= eing dead don't usually ever end, so its unlikely that one would
spe= ak of "ba'o morsi", "having been dead", except in s= ome very special
contexts.

mu'o mi'e xorxes






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